Bungee Retention on AR15 Mag Pouches and Mag Changes

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just got one of the Esstac single AR15 mag shingles with adjustable bungee retention. I really liked this design because it looked like it would be quick for a mag change. I had been using a Blackhawk Triple AK STRIKE pouch and while it was fast, you have to rip the lid before you can grab the mag.

I've recently replaced the Triple AK pouch with a BDS Tactical six mag shingle. That is working well also; but I just cannot get the bungee retention. It is actually slower for me than either of the other two ammo pouches.

I was wondering if there was a technique to it that I just wasn't aware of or if this is one of those individual preference things?

 

[Preacherman]

Sounds like interesting gear. Could you please post links to where we can see the items concerned?

 

[ruger270man]

im assuming the bungee would be better for quietness and stealth..

i hate velcro, too damn noisy... and snaps make noise as well..

 

[Thin Black Line]

Mag shingles....I think I will stay with magpuls in a spec-ops pouch
and KISS.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Added some links to the gear for those who were curious. Just spent about two hours moving stuff around, trying it and re-weaving it. The nice thing about modular pouches is the versatility. The downside is there are so many configurations you keep re-weaving the Malice clips trying out the same gear in some new stack.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Personally, I do not prefer the bungee retention system. However, I am acquainted with a few people who do. Based on my observations, I offer the following:

I am assuming you are carrying on some type of vest/chest rig. My recollection is that the Esstac mag puoches allow you to adjust the depth of the magazine in the pouch. It is important to adjust the bungee so that there is sufficient slack to slip the bungee off the edge of the magazine.


For bullets forward carry:

1. You hand comes from behind the magazine moving toward the centerline. You may come at the magazine at a slight downward angle. The web of your hand should contact the floorplate of the magazine slightly behind the slider on the bungee cord.

2. As your hand continues into position on the magazine, the web should slide along the floorplate and push the bungee off of the front of the magazine. Exercise caution that you do not trap the bungee against the magazine with your finger. (I am not sure how you avoid doing this but I have seen more than one magazine go flying as a result.)

3. Withdraw the magazine from the pouch.

I am afraid I have not seen the bungee used by anyone who "beer cans" their magazine.

Good luck. HTH.

 

[Jeff White]

Bart,
I'm not familiar with the ESSTAC pouch. Does it have the elastic bungge cord that comes over the top of the magazine like the Tactical Taylor single mag pouch? Or is it in the body of the pouch like the Paraclete dual M4 pouch and pills the pouch shut on the remaining mag after you pull one out?

I've used both and found that sliding the bungee sideways off the op of the mag in the TT pouch is not as natural a motion as pulling up the top of a flapped pouch, but I don't think it's all that much slower.

Pat Rogers recommends designating one pouch as an emergency reload pouch. The fastest is probably a friction tensioned pouch such as these, one from BladeTec and one from The Wilderness. Eagle has produced M4 pouches lined in kydex in the past, but I don't think they have one in production now.

HTH
Jeff

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Thanks Blackhawk 6. Sounds like it is a combination of me not understanding the technique and having the lid adjusted too deeply.

I've been coming from the front of the magazine with my index finger along the front (bullets forward). I was under the impression that the bungie had enough give to work by pulling up and then just giving the mag a little jiggle to cause the bungie to slide off the back.

Naturally, that isn't happening so I've been pulling the bungee tab off (coming from the front again) and then going back again to pull the magazine and the extra movement is obviously the source of the added time. I'll try adjusting the lid to give me a little more slack and give it another try.

Bart,
I'm not familiar with the ESSTAC pouch. Does it have the elastic bungge cord that comes over the top of the magazine like the Tactical Taylor single mag pouch? Or is it in the body of the pouch like the Paraclete dual M4 pouch and pills the pouch shut on the remaining mag after you pull one out?

It is like the TT pouch that comes over the floorplate of the magazine and pulls it down into the pouch.

I've used both and found that sliding the bungee sideways off the op of the mag in the TT pouch is not as natural a motion as pulling up the top of a flapped pouch, but I don't think it's all that much slower.

Well, it looks like I had the technique wrong; so I guess I'll have to try it the right way; but so far the BDS has been more natural for me.

Pat Rogers recommends designating one pouch as an emergency reload pouch. The fastest is probably a friction tensioned pouch such as these, one from BladeTec and one from The Wilderness. Eagle has produced M4 pouches lined in kydex in the past, but I don't think they have one in production now.

Thanks, that is kind of the way I was hoping to use this pouch. I guess we'll have to see. I haven't had much chance to shoot these past few months but I am hoping to make up for it over the next month. I've got a bunch of nylon that is about to go up for sale. It is like the old holster box but 100 times worse. Try something, figure out what you don't like, look for a product that fixes that problem and find something new you don't like

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Let us know how it works out.

 

[NMshooter]

As I already have several boxes full of assorted nylon even after giving some away as Christmas presents I appreciate your testing Bartholomew.

I was looking at those open top TT pouches, but I think I will hold off on ordering until I see your review, because it is getting harder to store all this stuff...

 

[Teufelhunden]

im assuming the bungee would be better for quietness and stealth..

i hate velcro, too damn noisy... and snaps make noise as well..

If you're reloading your M16, haven't you already make some fairly significant noise 30 times?

-Teuf

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

For those who were curious on how the testing turned out, here is the report:

I used the Esstac Bungee Retention pouch and the BDS Six-Packer. The Esstac was mounted on the very far left side of a Blackhawk Rhodesian rig (I used the partial 3 strip tall PALS layer to mount it). A Maxpedition RolyPoly was mounted on the bottom of the Esstac single-mag pouch. The BDS six-mag shingle was mounted dead center on my chest with nothing attached to it. Also I used a mag with Magpul in the Esstac pouch and normal GI mags (no magpuls) in the BDS pouch. I probably should have reversed that.

Assuming perfect runs (no mag fumbling, bungee malfunctions or anything else), the bungee retention was about 0.2 sec faster on average (counting only perfect runs). If you include all runs, the flap is maybe 0.1-0.2sec faster.

Note that I only did a 3-4 perfect runs and maybe 10 runs each total, so this is hardly a statistically valid number. The problem with the bungee is that when it slides off just like Blackhawk 6 described, it is a lightning fast mag change. If the bungee catches on something, slides off but catches the corners of the mag, or you trap the bungee with your hand - the mag change goes awry quickly and is slow to recover. If you are going to use it, slow practice to build up correct muscle memory is probably worthwhile. The grippy rubber material of the Ranger plate also made sliding the bungee off a little more difficult than a smooth GI floorplate would have.

On the BDS 6-shingle, the mags went in very tightly. You can definitely NOT use older style magpuls with these. As a result, the first mag out of a dual mag pouch was always slower than the second mag (and slower than a perfect bungee run). The most common flub here (I was using regular floorplates with no type of magpul) was grabbing the mag and having my hand slip off it as friction was too great. However that is a pretty easy flub to recover from. The BDS lids are tall enough to accomodate the Ranger plates and I would definitely recommend that or paracord for at least the first mag in every pouch. The second mag came right out every time.

Both pouches did a good job of retention and keeping assorted crud out of the mags. The Esstac pouch features "adjustable depth bungee retention" but there isn't all that much adjustment room as it is a single piece of cloth velcroed on both sides (so if you lift one side of the lid up, you also lift the depth the mag can be stowed up). However there was enough adjustment room to make using them with Ranger plates feasible.

I think I am going to continue to use both products in the same location. I plan on making the Esstac pouch my "fast access" mag and using a plain floorplate there. I will use Magpuls on the BDS pouch and see if the times on both improve.

I really liked the RolyPoly hanging off the Esstac for a quick mag change. You just drop the empty in the bag and as you come forward you grab the mag in the Esstac pouch. I think the a bungee retention pouch is probably faster mounted towards the strong side outboard where the natural motion of your hand during reload works with you. Mounted inboard and up front on your chest, it may be a bit slower.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Bart,

I am glad you were able to get the bungee-retention to work for you. At the risk of being too forward, I would offer a bit of advise: rethink the use of the Esstac as the "fast access" mag pouch.

As you have already discovered:

If the bungee catches on something, slides off but catches the corners of the mag, or you trap the bungee with your hand - the mag change goes awry quickly and is slow to recover

While the potential of such an occurance can be diminished with training, I do not believe it can be fully eliminated. The possibility of fumbling a magazine during a reload always exists to some degree. When you consider the importance of the "fast access" mag pouch and the circumstances underwhich one would opt to use the magazine it contains, using a pouch that enhances the possibility of fumbling the magazine is a non-starter for me. I prefer a system that provides unrestricted access to the magazine.

In the past I have used a chest-mounted magpouch with the lid inserted between the magazines, leaving one exposed. I found this to be very secure, though I did have some lingering concerns about losing the magazine. On the occasions where use of a sub-load was not a liability, I used a Safariland leg-shroud with an open-top mag-pouch*. I maxed out the tension on the magazine pouch. Very secure, yet the resistance goes unnoticed when the situation demands a rapid mag change. Kydex magazine carriers or nylon carriers with plastic inserts are other options I would consider suitable.

In the end it boils down to shooter-preference. I thought I would share my $.02 and, perhaps, save you a headache.

Editted to add: *This was the system encouraged at Bill Rogers' school during the rifle course. During the short-range portion, there was no way I could have consistently made the reloads in the timeframes alotted using another method. It made a believer out of me.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I do want to give the system a fair run before dumping it; but I can definitely see the potential problems there. I want to see if I can train myself to a level where I am confortable with the pouch. Giving it a month and a few range sessions doesn't really seem like a fair evaluation. Especially since I haven't tried with slick floorplates yet. At a minimum, that would eliminate the issue where it slides off the Ranger plate but catches on the corner of the magbody. The Esstac pouch also has a decent friction fit; so I may just undo the bungee and see how that works.

My primary plan is to transition to pistol rather than do a fast reload anyway (though I am currently rethinking my pistol access with this rig as well).

 

[NineseveN]

I don't like the bungee tops at all for the same reasons already stated, that's why I use Tactical Tailor double 7.62 pouches which close with fastex buckles and/or velcro and have the bungee cord where it ought to be, "around the mags".

 

[pcf]

TT Pouches

I've used the TT pouches for some time, I like them. The bungie is pulled over the front edge of the magazine/magpul. It's very secure, I can hold the harness upside down and shake it and not lose the magazines. However, pulling the magazine straight out isn't a problem.

I've tried gluing 1x2" pieces of magazine in the pouches and it works but putting magazines in the pouches is a pita.