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Bushing sizing dies : Redding, Forster, Hornady..

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by SteveW-II, Feb 7, 2009.

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  1. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    I am looking at buying a bushing based neck sizing die to resize the 308 cases from my bolt target gun. Right now, I am using a Lee Collet die which gets me about 3 to 4 thou of run out in a loaded round. I hope to get smaller run out numbers with a bushing die.

    I wondered if anyone had experience of the Redding type 'S', Forster Precision Plus or Hornady Match Grade dies to share ?

    Do they all bump the shoulder back a little when sizing the neck without sizing the rest of the case ?

    How much undersize do you order the bushings ? The literature says 2 to 3 thou, but it's clear that you can vary the case tension like this and not need to consider crimping..

    Again, looking for input and opinion.

    Thanks..
     
  2. 45ACPUSER

    45ACPUSER Member

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    Redding Type S Neck Dies do not mess with the shoulder of the brass at all. They size only neck of case! This is also true of other brands, Redding does offer a Type S FL die, too. If you buy a Redding Type S Neck Match Die set you get the body die, to bump the shoulder when needed.

    RCBS has both a FL and Neck Gold Medal die set, and they use Redding or Wilson Bushings.

    Forster usew proprietary bushings, I think. Hornady does not offer that broad a range of bushings like that of Redding bushings... Plus the Redding bushings can be had in steel or titanium coated bushings.

    Most sort of want 2 thousanths tension. So, measure your neck wall thickness and multiply by 2 and and the bullet diameter ie 0.308, then subtract 0.002" for a bushing size. Each brand of brass will be different and may even vary with different lots of brass from same company.
     
  3. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Steve, I have Redding competition sets in a bunch of calibers and I typically neck size 0.002" to 0.003" under the OD of the neck of a loaded round. USSR made a good point recently ... he mentioned that if you're reducing the neck size by 0.005" or more in one sizing, a 0.334" bushing will size the neck to 0.333". I checked this recently and he's absolutely right. If you buy the Redding set, get the TiNi bushing ... it's worth the extra cost. As 45ACPUSER mentioned, you'll need a body die which comes with the Type 'S' sets but not with the competition sets as far as I remember.

    :)
     
  4. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    Thanks Fellas..

    The Hornady Match Dies come in two flavours, full length size or 'shoulder bump', both using a bushing to size the neck.
    From Hornadys web site : "Available in two styles: full-length sizing and shoulder bump neck size. Both styles feature interchangeable neck sizing bushings. Select the bushing your cartridge requires to complete your Match Grade Die"
    https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=75d394f11b7903b7c4ee4528cfcc6157

    The Forster is only a shoulder bump, with neck bushing.
    http://www.forsterproducts.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=83

    I guess the Redding is just a neck sizer, and you buy the body die to go with it.

    When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?

    Thanks !
     
  5. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Quote for Hornady page?

    This is new to me "shoulder bump neck size" is that possible? :confused: If you push the shoulder back, something has to support the body, its called Full Length Resizing. I use Redding FLRS type S bushing die.
     
  6. 45ACPUSER

    45ACPUSER Member

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    Seems like a using a Redding Type S FL Die?

    Seems to me like Redding Type S Neck and FL Sizer?
     
  7. 45ACPUSER

    45ACPUSER Member

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    I have been taking my 308 Lapua brass down in two passes with a 339" bushing and them using .336" bushing, and I do the same thing with WW/BHA brass with different sized bushings. To help with minimizing work hardening of the brass.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Yes, and it is critical to keep the shoulder bumped back a gnats hair if you are running tight necked chambers and hot loads. The adjustment for this changes as your brass goes from new/soft to work hardened as it gets multiple firings on it.
     
  9. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    Not wishing to hijack my own thread, but how do you measure the amount of shoulder 'bump' ? A RCBS cartridge micrometer ?

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=574297

    Once again, I am hoping that a bushing die will help me get better than 4 thou of bullet runout in a loaded round. Is that realistic ?
     
  10. crashcarruthers

    crashcarruthers Member

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    My solution is to have Hornady Custom Die made for a Gun. They also offer hydrallic form die that will expand a case so you don't have to fire form them.Just call them and ask about your options. I think a 3 die custom match grade set is like 185 dollars and you furnish them three fired cartridges from that single gun. Just an option.
     
  11. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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  12. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    An RCBS micrometer will work. I use a Redding Instant Indicator/Bullet Comparator to measure headspace so that I know how much to bump the shoulder back. The link has some good information regardless of what you buy/use.

    :)
     
  13. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    Can anyone address the 'run out' question ?

    > When you load ammunition with these type of dies, what kind of run out numbers do you get ?
     
  14. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Steve, I don't measure run out of my cases so I can't help you with that one. I do roll loaded rounds along the bench on occasion to see if the bullet "wobbles" but that's about it. I should probably consider Holland's Concentricity Gauge but I'm not sure if it's worth it yet. I don't see any other offerings from Redding, Hornady, RCBS etc.

    :)
     
  15. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    Thank you Sir.

    I measure my 'run out' with a Vee block and dial indicator on the shank of the bullet close to the case, then rotate the round in the Vee block while keeping an eye on the dial indicator.. You can buy commercial setups from RCBS and others.

    Clearly, I am trying to seat the bullet as close to the centre line of the brass as possible, but this is dictated by the neck. I.E. how concentric the neck is to the center line. The Lee Collet die gets me about 4 thou of 'run out'. I am hoping that a bushing neck sized will get me less. If not, then I will stay with the Collet die I guess.

    Commercial Concentricity Gages :

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=292524
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=486557
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=310955
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I am a moron sometimes. Repeat
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  17. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Steve, I measured 10 loaded .300 Win Mag rounds today using a "V" block and a very precise dial indicator that our machinist set up for me. I don't know if this will help you but the maximum runout was under +/- 0.001". Most of the rounds were +/- 0.0005" which amazed me. First off, these W-W Super cases have been fired twice in a Krieger barrel/chamber, neck-sized three times, once when they were new but the neck was on the small side so the bushing didn't do much. They were sized two more times, once after each firing and they were sized down to 0.332". I honestly can't say if the Redding neck-sizing die is responsible for the negligible runout or if it's the chamber and the number of times that the cases have been fired. I don't think that W-W Super cases are thought of as being high end. I recently bought 200 Norma cases in .300 Win Mag and .300 WSM so I'll try to make some before/after measurements with those to see if the case neck's concentricity improves/changes after each firing.

    I hope this helps.

    :)
     
  18. SteveW-II

    SteveW-II Member

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    Again, thank you.
     
  19. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    SteveW-II, You should do a search at http://www.benchrest.com/forums/index.php? your .004" run out you now have is not that all uncommon and may have no effect on accuracy if what i read online is true. The bushing dies work best on rifles with tight neck chambers. This is because the bushing has to size the neck very little. Unlike a factory chamber where the bushing must size down .008" and sometimes more. This is where they say runout happens. Go to the Redding site and read all of that info. http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/techline.html If you going to shoot 1000 yds, then maybe i would worry about a few .001" 's runout. Then custom benchrest dies are needed, they are not made by Redding, RCBS, types, these are just factory dies. I do not check runout, and my old 40x rifle would not know the difference IMO. Hope this helps.
     
  20. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Steve, the OD of the necks of cases fired in my Krieger barrel are 0.340". The OD of the neck with a seated A-MAX is 0.335". Ideally I like to size the OD of the neck down to 0.333" but as USSR pointed out, if you size more than 0.005" in one step the end result is 0.001" UNDER the bushing size. I've been sizing in one step with a 0.333" bushing so the actual change in OD is 0.008" but my case necks have virtually zero runout. If this is where runout is supposed to occur then I'm either lucky or the equipment that I use is producing good results. I don't know what all of this means or how it affects anything. I'm certainly not a benchrest shooter. My interest is the practical application of firearms so 0.5MOA is all I'm after, but maybe you'll find this information useful.

    :)
     
  21. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    "shoulder bump neck size"

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/5281012301 Someone explain to me how you could push the shoulder back with out supporting the body, and still have the round chamber?? This can only be done in a FLRS Redding type S bushing die. IMO. NOT in a neck size only die.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  22. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Redding Body Die FYI

    This info came from the above link also. I know this to be true about the body die.
     
  23. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    The whole purpose of using a neck sizing die is that they DON'T touch the shoulder or body of the case. None of my Redding neck sizing dies touch the shoulder. I have Redding body dies to bump the shoulder back if/when needed.


    243winxb, I only buy Redding dies these days (along with the occasional Lee crimp die), but as for Foster's neck sizing/shoulder bump die, it does sound like it'd be difficult to size the neck and bump the shoulder back WITHOUT upsetting the body of the case.

    :)
     
  24. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Those dies are designed to make contact with the body without sizing it. This contact keeps it from moving when the shoulder is bumped back. Remember, the shoulder is getting bumped back only 1 or 2 thousandths. :)
     
  25. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die

    The die is adjusted the same as any FLRS die.
    This leaves no adjustment on how much the shoulder is bumped. If the bushing is remover it becomes a body die that can maintain proper headspace in any
    chamber, custom or factory.
    I know what the email said from Forster (DEE), but i dont buy it. :banghead:http://www.forsterproducts.com/Media/Instructions%20for%20Dies/Bushing%20Bump%20Sizing%20Die%20DIE-0008.pdf
    The brass should be neck turned if not using an expander.
    In Conclusion, the Forster Bushing Bump Sizing Die will neck size and bump the shoulder as advertised, but care must me taken so that the case body does not bulge. The die would have to be set as if one was using the method of “partial full-length resizing”. To make life simple, just forget Forster and get the Redding Type-S Full Length Resizing Bushing Die that comes with an expander, or just use the decapper with out expander. Then control your cartridge headspacing by shoulder bump die adjustment. If you have a custom benchrest rifle ,6ppc type or 1000 yds gun, then buy real custom dies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
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