Buyers beware!

[JShirley]

Sure enough, I ignore the sign asking not to handle it

Maybe the title of this should be "seller beware". Because random show attendees will somehow feel entitled to handle your stuff, despite clearly posted instructions. You were out of line, and it's too bad you weren't ejected from the show.

(And IT DOESN'T MATTER what the seller did- you acted rudely, and yet you're here to disparage others' behavior? Irony much?)

John

 

[Glocked-N-Loaded]

Mmmhmmmm.... I like what you did there JShirley, I humbly agree.

 

[Robert]

I'm a big fan of the Golden Rule.

Clearly...

Sure enough, I ignore the sign asking not to handle it and check out the arsenal markings on the left side of the receiver. They were clearly Chinese! Dude was all sorts of scowling at me as I busted out laughing and pointed out as loudly as possible to my brother two tables away that it wasn't even Russian.

Classy and very THR.

 

[winchester '97]

Best thing i ever saw at a gun show was homebrew 20 guage rounds where the slug was actually a bullet from the Kpv 14.7mm machine gun.

 

[doc2rn]

Respect

I think that goes to the core of whats going on in America. You have people who feel entitled to do whatever they want. From the guy with the overpriced weapon system hiding it's origin, and the OP both felt entitled to be rude to each other.
I just don't get people anymore. Guess thats why I live all alone up in them thar hills. Respect everything around you and it will repay you in kind.
Respect the signs, respect your self, respect each other and you can succeed even in todays grab all you can society.
Karma will always pay ya back!
I appologise to the Mods but this really got my goat, rant off.

 

[Oceans]

Those are some of the reasons why I stopped going to goon shows. The jerks at the tables, the door prices, though five dollars is not too bad, the idiots in the crowd, the inflated prices on the sub par guns, and the rip off artists trying to sell something that it isn't. To me, the gas and hassle are more trouble than the show is worth. Today if I have a firearm, that I can't find parts for, or is very temperamental, I get rid of it, and get something that isn't. The ammo hoarders were the last straw for me. When I saw how the shooting community devolved during this last hyped up scare, it really soured me.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Sure, call it "seller beware." Seller beware, if you try to swindle the honest and hard-working, some of them will point it out. Seller beware, they authenticity of your claims will be challenged. Seller beware, some people have a very low tolerance for BS.

I think that anyone trying to mislead others should expect to be called out on it, and if for whatever reason, I was ever on the other side of the table, I would hope somebody would set me in my place. The Golden Rule states simply that you do onto others as you'd have them do onto you, treat people like you want to be treated. I don't think I violated this. I treated him with about the same respect as he treated me and responded in kind.

As it is, I've sat on a broken USP Tactical 45 for years now knowing full well I could probably pawn it off on some poor sap whose played too much Rainbow Six. Why? Because I don't feel right misleading others and thus don't feel comfortable selling somebody something I know to be broken.

If they are going to charge people money to get into these events, the least they could do is make it worth it. People don't pay to get into a building so they can have their intelligence insulted, nor do they look forward to spending an afternoon being swindled and mislead.

Maybe I should have asked to handle it. But it occurred to me it didn't matter what he said, I was still going to check the arsenal markings to confirm my suspicions. At that point I was 99% positive that I was looking at a Chinese rifle, and I wasn't about to let him hide behind a 4" by 5" florescent pink sign. Like I said, what is he going to do? Kick me out. Big deal. I was on my way towards the door anyways.

At any rate, that was my second gun show and I don't think there will be another. Both the gun shows I've been too seemed seedy, about the moral equivalent of a motel you pay for by the hour. I've left both of them feeling a little dirty and more than a little disappointed. I would have never guessed you could make something as simple and normally entertaining to me as looking at guns so dirty and wrong, but somehow I've left both of the gun shows I've attended feeling violated--maybe not full out molested, but definitely well groped. No thanks. I think I'd almost rather go to the dentist than another gun show. So all the bottom feeders and scoundrels out there hiding behind the courtesy of others and attempting to feed off their ignorance can rest easier because you no longer have to worry about at least two upstanding and knowledgeable gun owners punking you out in front of your friends. But for the feathers I've rustled in the shows that I've went to, I remain unapologetic.

 

[taliv]

I've left both of them feeling a little dirty and more than a little disappointed

well, as with most things, you get out of it what you put into it

 

[HOOfan_1]

Do these shows have any sort of rules about vendor honesty?

 

[waterhouse]

The Golden Rule states simply that you do onto others as you'd have them do onto you, treat people like you want to be treated.

Exactly. It is possible that the dealer was trying to swindle people. This violates the Golden Rule, as I'm sure he wouldn't want to be swindled. Such issues may be brought up politely because it may be a simple mistake, and the show promoters can be notified if the mistake isn't corrected.

In the same manner, how would you like it if I touched any piece of your property, especially a piece that you had specifically asked me not to touch? If you don't want other people mistreating your property and handling it without your permission, you shouldn't do that to someone else's property. Society would be a better place if we didn't sink to the level of the dishonest dealer.

Maybe I should have asked to handle it. But it occurred to me it didn't matter what he said, I was still going to check the arsenal markings to confirm my suspicions.

So if I saw you at the range, and asked to shoot one of your guns, and you said no, it would be OK with you if I picked up your guns and shot it anyway?

Although you and I learned the same words, it appears we have a very different understanding of the Golden Rule.

 

[Glocked-N-Loaded]

Wow, gun show vigilante! Look, you may think you put that guy in his place but the only thing you accomplished is making yourself look like a fool. Did you think the guy would pack up in shame or go cry in the corner? You touched property that wasn't yours after having clear instructions not to do so..... what kind of person does that? I know small children that do that but come on. Ever been to a sporting event? New York City? Vegas? People trying to scam all day every day but you don't see people making a scene in public and tattling like a school yard crybaby, they just ignore them. If someone is stupid enough to buy a Chinese knockoff of a Russian rifle, perhaps they need that experience to educate them on future purchases. You're going to do what you want but I'm embarrassed for you, truly, like I felt embarrassment while I was reading this like I had did it myself, that's pretty bad. The only thing this thread impressed upon me is someone acted like a fool in public by calling out loudly to others not in his vicinity, which is very rude by the way, and laughed out loudly in what was sure to be an annoying fashion in order to call attention to themselves.

 

[benzy2]

Maybe I should have asked to handle it. But it occurred to me it didn't matter what he said, I was still going to check the arsenal markings to confirm my suspicions. At that point I was 99% positive that I was looking at a Chinese rifle, and I wasn't about to let him hide behind a 4" by 5" florescent pink sign. Like I said, what is he going to do? Kick me out. Big deal. I was on my way towards the door anyways.

That's the problem. You feel entitled to handle that rifle, despite what the owner states. It isn't your rifle. The point isn't that you were leaving anyways and could do whatever you felt. The point is that you feel like you can do what you like regardless. You brag you would have dropped the rifle intentionally if he said anything to you about it. Really? How old are you? You sound like a 9 year old throwing a fit. Where do you get off thinking you have a right to touch and then damage another persons property if you feel like it? It's down right wrong. Telling the guy he's a fraud and misrepresenting his items is one thing. Informing those running the show is one thing. Being a punk is another. You were a punk, plain and simple.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

If he really didn't want it handled, he shouldn't have brought it to a gun show. If it really mattered that much to him, it wouldn't be for sale at a public vendor, spread out on a table in the open. That is why people go to gun shows--to handle guns. That is, in fact, the whole point. Or did he really think he was going to sell an SKS for $700 just because it looks that good?

How much stuff do you really intend to sell at a yard sale, for example, if every table has a sign saying "do not touch?" I don't know but I think that is asking a bit much. You put items for sale at a public venue but you expect people to wait in line and ask to touch every single item? Really? There's enough people and enough tables that I don't think that is a reasonable expectation. This wasn't like every other "do not touch" sign posted on a single distinguishable item, usually for a rather apparent reason, that I adhered to. This was a sign in the middle of every table this guy controlled, and his was the only display so marked. Sorry bud, but if you want to put your guns up for sale without having anybody touch them, there is this place called the Internet. And even there, you're going to have a hard time selling that rifle as Russian without showing a Russian Arsenal marking at some point.

So if I saw you at the range, and asked to shoot one of your guns, and you said no, it would be OK with you if I picked up your guns and shot it anyway?

I'll put it this way...only the one's with the price tags on them. You can handle any firearm I bring into public with a price tag on it. In fact, at that point, I am going to insist you handle it. Like selling a vehicle, I'd almost feel guilty selling it to someone who didn't even take it for a test drive.

You brag you would have dropped the rifle intentionally if he said anything to you about it. Really?

It's an SKS. In apocalypse, all that survives is cockroaches and SKSs. Breaking it without a chainsaw probably isn't going to happen. And it already looked like it had been ran over by a tractor. But you're right, that would have been too far.

 

[eastbank]

at the last show i was at i wanted to buy a real nice S&W 1937 brazilian 45 auto rim revolver,but the insti check was down,so left. eastbank.

 

[vanfunk]

When you're in a hole, stop digging!

I won't jump on, as there are enough people on the pig pile to have made the point, but I will advance my two cents with the others and reiterate that you did the wrong thing. Regardless of the seller's presumably nefarious intentions, with the sign clearly specifying that the item was not to be touched, then you shouldn't have grabbed it. It is illogical to presume that guns specifically labeled "do not touch" are still OK to grab, because, as you ask rhetorically, "You put items for sale at a public venue but you expect people to wait in line and ask to touch every single item? Really?" Yes, really, if they are so labeled.

I think you were expecting this report to be heralded here on THR as a shining example of one courageous man's stand against unscrupulous gunshow carneys, sure to rally support. You likely could have done so, if you had simply reported the obvious hyperbole of the seller, and perhaps a respectful attempt on your part to bring his misrepresentation to light. Instead, you willfully ignored the posted sign and in so doing, hopelessly corroded any moral advantage you had. In sum, you didn't do the right thing here, more mature and tempered folks have called you on it, and now the right thing to do is acknowledge your mistake and move on.

vanfunk

 

[jcwit]

Read this whole thread and all I can say is I agree with the responses from all the mods.

 

[Tirod]

If you had been there on the other side of the table and told me to put it down as loudly as possible, I would have told you to kiss my rear as loudly as possible, then probably just dropped the rifle onto the table from chest height and flipped you off.

Since you persist in thinking you're entitled to act anyway you please, be prepared for a lot of this the rest of your life.

No, gun show vendors do NOT intend for their merchandise to be constantly picked up and handled by every ill disciplined looky-loo in the arena. It's not your responsibility or place in life to be the GunShow Fraud Squad. If anything, a lot of us look forward to some of this, because we know this stuff won't move, and it's all a lot of hype. We laugh at the newbs who hover over it and don't have a clue. It's part of the entertainment fee.

Cash transactions are between the seller and an interested buyer. All others BUTT OUT. If it appears a cash buyer is acting against common sense or even his own best interest, it's not your specific responsibility to exercise prior restraint on their behavior. It's America, where you have the freedom to make really stupid decisions. I see people do that every day buying parts to fix cars that absolutely won't repair them. They are in way over their head, but they refuse to get skilled diagnosis or study operating systems to know replacing a relay won't likely make the bad sensor better.

In this case, the behavior exhibited was WORSE than the sellers, because a big point was made to plaster the incident on a world wide internet forum and brag about committing two rude and arrogant acts. It's no wonder so many dealers buy plexiglass show cases to keep kids hands off the merchandise.

What's missing here is relevant experience. You need to work behind the table for a weekend and see what it's like putting up with all the like-minded morons ignoring your signs and making loud comments about what they think you're doing. It never fails, regardless of the painstaking accuracy of the description or price, there will be some clown to make that point.

 

[rbernie]

If he really didn't want it handled, he shouldn't have brought it to a gun show.

This is a childish statement. The vendor had a sign up, and he had every right to expect that his expressed wishes regarding his property (it is his until you buy it) would be honored. Failing to honor his wishes dishonors your actions and whatever good intentions may have precipitated them.

Like selling a vehicle, I'd almost feel guilty selling it to someone who didn't even take it for a test drive.

But you likely wouldn't expect the prospective buyer to grab the keys and take off without some preliminary interactions and without you obtaining some reason to believe that they'll actually come back with the car and return it in the same condition in which they received it. You would expect them to ask to drive it, and you would likely be shocked, appalled, and angry if they tried to drive it without asking. Such poor behavior is pretty much the equivalent of what you did here, but for some reason you just won't see it because you're stuck on the righteousness of your intentions.

The bottom line, MTM, is that you saw something that offended your sense of social justice, and you acted to address that. I get that, as does everyone else here. The issue that we have is that your means of addressing the situation was as equally inappropriate as the vendor's actions, and your subsequent defense of your actions has been overly wrought with righteous indignation, lacking in moral basis, and at times just silly (e.g. threatening to purposely damage another's' property if they speak poorly to you).

Let's try this homilie on for size: Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[hso]

If he really didn't want it handled, he shouldn't have brought it to a gun show.

You admit that this is your second show so you should assume that there are rules and conventions of behavior that you may not be aware of. These conventions include those to protect the property of the people who've paid for a table (far more than the price of admission). People put "Don't Touch" signs out because all manner of folks pick up and handle firearms with no regard for them and they get scratched or greasy/salty/rust producing fingerprints on them. Most of the time they're on tables with just one guy sitting at it and he's trying to keep an eye on his stuff to keep it from walking away AND he's trying to avoid wiping it down constantly from kids with no interest in buying fondling the guns. He's trying to keep self-centered poorly raised jerks that have no concept of polite behavior from damaging his property so he's resorted to putting up a sign to tell them what they should already know, ask for permission to handle someone's property and handle it like it was a real treasure instead of trash.

I doubt you're going to get anything from this thread since you consider any behavior on your part to be justified by the fact that the rifle wasn't as promoted. The point you're missing that everyone is trying to point out is that none of us are justified in behaving like a jerk just because we've found someone else acting like one. Treat other people with respect until they prove that they don't deserve it, don't start out assuming you can treat them badly.

 

[sansone]

unbelievable.. maybe we ARE in a downward moving society, but I surely want to be among the fellas with respect for others. Glad to see the members here agree. I teach my children to respect and obey the wishes of those around us. If you feel someone is less than trustworthy or boorish, just walk away. I hope the OP is just tugging our chains for entertainment

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay, two wrongs don't make a right. I get that.

One of the reasons I like this place is because ya'll do hold me to a higher standard. I've been part of other forums where the moderators were more part of the problem than the solution, where language wasn't checked, and a standard of integrity was not upheld. This one is the only one I frequent on a daily basis.

I guess I was not privy to gun show etiquette and assumed that the dishonesty on the part of the seller was a bigger deal. I wasn't aware that was part of "the game."

And I will admit my actions were motivated by a sense of frustration and disappointment, even anger, at not really getting what I wanted from the show. So yes, I should have asked. Even if I still don't really understand how you expect people to get in line and ask, individually, to handle any item on your display when there are so many other tables and displays for them to wonder off too as they get bored waiting, it was his property. I will also admit that even if the manner in which I handled it was childish and immature, it did accomplish its goal. I did feel a little better leaving after that. Probably shouldn't have, but it's done and over now and I doubt if I'll be rushing to another gun show any time soon.

 

[Art Eatman]

MTM, gunshows can be quite enjoyable. You've found a learning experience about the "do and don't-do", so just file it away and go on down the road. Not all that big a deal, so long as you've learned. Leave it at that.

You can't let a problem with one dealer at one table at one gunshow out of thousands of dealers at dozens and dozens of gunshows turn you off of gunshows. To me, that's a silly notion.

I had tables at gunshows for some thirty years, from around 1970 to around 2000. I've had or seen problems with idiot dealers and idiot customers. But those were maybe one percent of all gunshow happenings. Me, I'll take the 99% majority, any day.

But IMO this thread has pretty much run its course...