Buying a pistol when 18 in MI

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

TylerPearce

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
100
Location
Michigan
I live in Michigan, and I am legally allowed to own a handgun(and do), however I am not allowed to purchase one from an ffl dealer. I found a used one at an FFL dealer that I would like to buy. So, long story short, would there be a legality issue if my mom or dad bought it and registered it to themselves, and then "sold" it to me?
 
No. It's a gift. They buy it and register in their name. Then go down to the police station together and have it registered in your name. Done.
 
If they are using your money to buy the gun that is going to end up going to you, it is a straw purchase and illegal (against Federal law).

If they use their money to buy a gun to give to you as a gift, with no compensation in return, then it is a gift and a legal transaction.

If they buy a gun with their money to add to their collection for their own personal use, and then sell you the gun as a private sale, that is also a legal transaction.
 
No. It's a gift. They buy it and register in their name. Then go down to the police station together and have it registered in your name. Done.
Click to expand...

This is called a Straw Purchase, and is not legal.

Check out Question 11a on the ATF form 4473.
 
Last edited:
This is called a Straw Purchase, and is not legal.
Click to expand...
Negative. It's not a straw purchase. I've done about 300 sales like this and the ATF approves of the way it was and is done. Thanks.
 
Huh, my bad then. I was under the impression that buying a firearm from an FFL for the sole purpose of gifting it to someone who cannot legally purchase it himself was not legal.
 
Gifts are legal.

Straw purchase is a concealment of the true identity of the transferee (recipient) or purchasing for a prohibited person (who cannot receive a firearm).
 
I was under the impression that buying a firearm from an FFL for the sole purpose of gifting it to someone who cannot legally purchase it himself was not legal.
Click to expand...
A straw purchase can, in fact, involve buying on behalf of someone who is prohibited by Federal law from receiving a gun. However, an 18 year old is not prohibited by Federal law from owning a handgun - the FFL is just prohibited from selling a handgun to anyone under 21.

That means that, in the eyes of the Feds, anyone 18-20 years old must either buy a handgun via private sale or receive one as a gift.
 
Last edited:
FatPants said:
Huh, my bad then. I was under the impression that buying a firearm from an FFL for the sole purpose of gifting it to someone who cannot legally purchase it himself was not legal.
Click to expand...

RhinoDefense said:
Straw purchase is a concealment of the true identity of the transferee (recipient) or purchasing for a prohibited person (who cannot receive a firearm).
Click to expand...


The legality of the person ultimately receiving the firearm to buy and/or possess that firearm has no bearing on straw purchasing. A straw purchase occurs when you buy a firearm using someone else's money with the intent of providing them with the firearm that you are purchasing. It does not matter if that third person is the felon down the street, your local chief of police or the President. The straw purchase is a violation of 18 USC 922 (a)(6) only:

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;
Click to expand...

Also notice that a straw purchase, at the Federal level, can occur only when buying firearms from a dealer.

Now, IF the person you are purchasing the firearm on behalf of IS prohibited from possessing that firearm, THEN a completely separate violation occurs - providing a firearm to a prohibited person in violation of 18 USC 922 (d):

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; ...
blah, blah, blah...
Click to expand...

Two separate offenses, against two separate sections of the US Code, that may occur individually or at the same time, but still two separate violations.

Also note that if an 18 year old handgun owner knowingly purchases ammunition from a dealer for use in a handgun, and does so by lying to the dealer and telling them the ammo is for use in a rifle, they have committed a "straw purchase" in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6).

Now, in the case of a person buying a handgun as a gift to an 18 year - at the Federal level - the purchaser is not violating 18 USC 922 (a)(6) because they are the actual purchaser of the firearm. It is completely legal to buy a firearm to be used as a gift. When they give the handgun to the 18 year old, they do not violate 18 USC 922(d) either, assuming the person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that firearm.
 
The legality of the recipient of the firearm is indeed a factor bearing on whether a straw purchase has occurred.
 
RhinoDefense said:
The legality of the recipient of the firearm is indeed a factor bearing on whether a straw purchase has occurred.
Click to expand...
Not according to the ATF and NSSF.

"...A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses a proxy buyer....(http://www.dontlie.org/FAQ.cfm, emphasis added)
 
RhinoDefense said:
The legality of the recipient of the firearm is indeed a factor bearing on whether a straw purchase has occurred.
Click to expand...

And to add to what Fiddletown posted:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 165:

15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
Click to expand...

Straight from the ATF. Any comments?
 
You simply don't get it.

If you buy a gun for a prohibited person, it's a straw purchase.

The last emphasized statement of "are not prohibited" is exactly my point. If both are allowed to own a firearm, it's not a straw purchase. If the actual recipient is NOT allowed to own a firearm, then it IS a straw purchase. So then my statement above of The legality of the recipient of the firearm is indeed a factor bearing on whether a straw purchase has occurred. is indeed correct.
:banghead:
 
We've posted what the Federal law says. We've posted what the ATF says about that Federal law. So, it's up to the readers to decide which interpretation they would like to go with. The US Code and BATFE, or RhinoDefense. Personally, I know which choice I am making.

Maybe RhinoDefense's confusion is with the word immaterial:

im·ma·te·ri·al
   /ˌɪməˈtɪəriəl/ [im-uh-teer-ee-uhl]
–adjective
1. of no essential consequence; unimportant.
2. not pertinent; irrelevant.

It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.
Click to expand...

Or maybe it is the punctuation?

Remove the punctuation and conjunctions:
It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located.
It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.
It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.
 
Last edited:
If they are using your money to buy the gun that is going to end up going to you, it is a straw purchase and illegal (against Federal law).

If they use their money to buy a gun to give to you as a gift, with no compensation in return, then it is a gift and a legal transaction.

If they buy a gun with their money to add to their collection for their own personal use, and then sell you the gun as a private sale, that is also a legal transaction.
Click to expand...

I had to stop here and reply. I bought my first pistol in MI at the age of 18. I went into the police station where they issued the permit to purchase and asked this very question. The lady behind the counter informed me to have a parent come in with me and get a permit to purchase for the parent and explain what was going on. Upon return they would 'register' the pistol into my parents name, then transfer it to my name so I would not have to pay the $5.00 permit fee.

It is still SOP and common practice in MI for things to happen this way today. Infact my wife bought me a pistol while I was not even in the country while back in MI. The same thing was done for her in this case.

This is just an FYI of how things work in MI. Glad to be of a help...

edit: I would gather from my experience that the people charged with enforcing the laws know what is going on and would not advise any federal law be broken. Since the FBI was on the other side of the police station and all.........
 
Last edited:
You simply don't get it.

If you buy a gun for a prohibited person, it's a straw purchase.

The last emphasized statement of "are not prohibited" is exactly my point. If both are allowed to own a firearm, it's not a straw purchase. If the actual recipient is NOT allowed to own a firearm, then it IS a straw purchase. So then my statement above of The legality of the recipient of the firearm is indeed a factor bearing on whether a straw purchase has occurred. is indeed correct.
Click to expand...

but isnt the 18yo prohibited from buying that handgun?
 
RhinoDefense said:
...The last emphasized statement of "are not prohibited" is exactly my point. If both are allowed to own a firearm, it's not a straw purchase...
Click to expand...
Ah, no. Let's take another look at the last emphasized statement from the ATF FAQs posted by NavyLT in post 15:

"...It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises s located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee."

So it doesn't matter if both the actual purchaser and straw purchaser are not prohibited from possessing a gun. It's still a straw purchase if one person buys a gun as the proxy of another.
 
It's still a straw purchase if one person buys a gun as the proxy of another.
Click to expand...
I suspect that the word PROXY captures the essence of the issue. It does not matter WHAT the rationale is for the proxy purchase, if the buyer is acting solely as a proxy for another then it is a straw purchase. The easiest way to determine a proxy seems to be to examine whose money is being used - if the purchaser is not forking over their own money, then they appear to be acting as a proxy for another.

A gift does not fall into this category because the purchaser intends to take direct possession and then at some point in the future give the object to someone else. A gift is purchased using the purchaser's own funds. A gift can be given to a prohibited person, but then that specific problem is not a straw purchase but an illegal transfer.

Or so I understand things. :)
 
The 4473 specifically asks if the person signing the form is buying the gun for himself/herself. If that person answers "Yes", but is actually buying it for someone else, the lie is a law violation, no matter who the someone else is.

Actually, there is nothing in federal law preventing an 18-year old from BUYING a handgun or OWNING a handgun. But a Federal Licensee is banned from SELLING or DELIVERING a handgun to him. That ban does not extend beyond FFL holders, who are under Federal control. Transfers (including gifts) by other persons within a state are subject to state law.

Jim
 
rbernie said:
...if the buyer is acting solely as a proxy for another then it is a straw purchase. ....A gift does not fall into this category because the purchaser intends to take direct possession and then at some point in the future give the object to someone else. A gift is purchased using the purchaser's own funds. A gift can be given to a prohibited person, but then that specific problem is not a straw purchase but an illegal transfer....
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
Then why would an issueing agent of a state the requires a permit for the purchase of a handgun TELL people to have a parent buy it for them, then skip over the permit and just register it in the under 21s name.

Better tell the people enforcing the laws they are doing it wrong......
 
Boris bush said:
Then why would an issueing agent of a state the requires a permit for the purchase of a handgun TELL people to have a parent buy it for them, then skip over the permit and just register it in the under 21s name.

Better tell the people enforcing the laws they are doing it wrong......
Click to expand...

Because the purchase was going to be from an FFL dealer, who is restricted to selling handguns to those 21+ years of age.

Jim Keenan makes the excellent point that there is no Federal law prohibiting an 18 year old from buying a handgun from a dealer - only the Federal prohibition restricting the dealer from selling - I had never noticed that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top