Buying a short-barreled shotgun...

[Airman193SOS]

I have been giving the Serbu Super Shorty a very hard look for a while, and in short order I will have enough coin to put down on one. However, even with the description that Mark Serbu put on his website, I am curious about your experiences with the BATF and the Form 4.

The first thing I need to do is find out if the borough chief of police will sign off on it. If not, there's no point in continuing, as I will not go through the silliness of incorporating just for a gun. Let's say he does. Next, there is a line that expressly asks about "need". What would be a good response? If I say "collector", will I catch hell? How about "self-defense", or even "home defense"?

After I manage to fill out the form, about how long will I have to wait for the word on it, really? It seems a bit risky to put your money down and hope for approval months down the road, doesn't it? If for whatever reason I were to be rejected, could I sell the "rights" to the weapon without taking possession, or does it simply remain in FFL limbo forever?

Having never done this, I find myself with lots of questions, but few answers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bowhunter57]

Airman193SOS,
If for any reason, this weapon is used for self defense, it can and usually will be confiscated until the authorities' investigations are complete.

It may become more of a hassle to have to constantly prove legal ownership of this weapon, that it would be a joy to own. :banghead:

Personally, I'd opt for a simular, but more legal and/or standard weapon.

Good luck with your choices!
Good hunting, Bowhunter57

 

[PTK]

The only experience I have with the BATFE currently is from Form 1s, which are what you submit when you want to make a short barreled shotgun from a previously existing shotgun.

As for the sign-off, try what many people are doing now. Make a trust with yourself as trustee and grantor. No fees, nothing to upkeep, and no photos/fingerprints/CLEO signoff.

Need? "All Lawful Purposes".

For the wait, I've been getting anything from 3 weeks to 7 weeks.

For the FFL-related question, that would be up to him. Usually they simply sell it or you can possibly return it to Mark Serbu.

As for whether it's worth doing or not.... it is.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

PTK, that thing is awsome. Did you watch Mad Max shortly before acquiring that?

 

[PTK]

I watched Mad Max, Road Warrior, Beyond Thunderdome, and The Punisher before I decided to file a Form 1 and make that, yes!

 

[wdlsguy]

I have been giving the Serbu Super Shorty a very hard look for a while, and in short order I will have enough coin to put down on one.

The Super Shorty is legally a smoothbore pistol, making it an AOW (Any Other Weapon) in NFA parlance. As such, it can never have a stock attached to it. A true SBS (short-barreled shotgun) can have a stock or a pistol grip only.

The first thing I need to do is find out if the borough chief of police will sign off on it.

There are others who can sign off on your Form 4, such as your sheriff.

If not, there's no point in continuing, as I will not go through the silliness of incorporating just for a gun.

As mentioned above, you can form a living trust instead of incorporating.

Next, there is a line that expressly asks about "need". What would be a good response?

All lawful purposes is a good answer in most cases.

After I manage to fill out the form, about how long will I have to wait for the word on it, really?

Tell yourself it will be 6 weeks and you will probably be pleasantly surprised.

 

[wdlsguy]

If for any reason, this weapon is used for self defense, it can and usually will be confiscated until the authorities' investigations are complete.

The same thing can happen to a non-NFA firearm.

It may become more of a hassle to have to constantly prove legal ownership of this weapon, that it would be a joy to own.

I have three NFA firearms at the moment, and nobody has ever asked to see my paperwork. Just carry a copy and keep the original in a safe deposit box.

 

[PTK]

wdlsguy brings up a good point. I've never been asked for my paperwork, and I've had this SBS in front of police, coworkers, and many people at the range. I just carry a laminated copy of the Form 1 and keep the original in safe storage.

 

[mp510]

Next, there is a line that expressly asks about "need". What would be a good response?

For the "reason" box, I put down "All lawful purposes".

After I manage to fill out the form, about how long will I have to wait for the word on it, really? It seems a bit risky to put your money down and hope for approval months down the road, doesn't it? If for whatever reason I were to be rejected, could I sell the "rights" to the weapon without taking possession, or does it simply remain in FFL limbo forever?

I just had a Form 1 take 32 days to get approved, and I had it in hand in about 45 days (from when I mailed the form in).

The first thing I need to do is find out if the borough chief of police will sign off on it. If not, there's no point in continuing, as I will not go through the silliness of incorporating just for a gun.

You may want to consider the Revocable Living Trust route as a previous poster mentioned.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

I've never been asked for my paperwork, and I've had this SBS in front of police, coworkers, and many people at the range.

Attitude, demeanor, and the "surely he's not that dumb" factor...

Demeanor: The outward physical behavior and appearance of a person.

the Revocable Living Trust route

I've never heard of that route... Does it just apply to buying?

 

[PTK]

wolf_from_wv - I look rather unpresentable at times. Long hair, tattoos, sometimes beat-up clothes. But, I never act dumb with anything relating to firearms, maybe that's it.

As for the trust, basically create a Revocable Living Trust either through a lawyer or using Quicken WillMaker. Print it out, get it notarized, make copies. Send the copy with the Form 1/4 and Form 5330-20 along with $200. No fingerprints, no CLEO signoff.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

It's not what you wear, it's how you wear it... (attitude)

==============

Found an Arizona gun list topic:

http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_t...able_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

 

[mp510]

I've never heard of that route... Does it just apply to buying?

Nope, Trusts are doable for making or acquiring. The NFA Definition of a 'person' is the same as the IRS definition, and that's why Trusts, like Corps/ LLCs can own NFA items in addition to people in the flesh.

You just have to keep up with the Trust legislation in your state, to ensure that your trust remains binding, and file a 1041 annually (the Trust's income tax return).

 

[wdlsguy]

You just have to keep up with the Trust legislation in your state, to ensure that your trust remains binding

Which is a good reason to use an attorney if you decide to go the trust route.

and file a 1041 annually (the Trust's income tax return).

This is only an issue if your trust generates income. Even then, it's possible to report trust income on your 1040 if you do things a certain way.

Instructions for Form 1041

 

[Airman193SOS]

Thanks for the good ideas. I think before I try to set up something like a trust I'll see what the local LEOs have to say. If worse comes to worse I may have to go the direction you guys have been talking about.

We'll see.

 

[GunTech]

A Serbu is, IIRC. manufactures as an AOW, so the tax is only $5.

I have a SBS, for which I paid the $200 tax. No problems getting sign off. You can usually get the local sheriffs policy with a phone call.

 

[Airman193SOS]

You are correct, it is an AOW, but I still have to fill out a BATF Form 4. The only difference as I see it is the amount you have to pay for the tax stamp.

 

[wdlsguy]

AOW vs. SBS

AOW
$200 to make on a Form 1
$5 to transfer on a Form 4
Form 5320.20 not required for interstate transportation
Can't have a buttstock

SBS
$200 to make on a Form 1
$200 to transfer on a Form 4
Form 5320.20 required for interstate transportation
Can have a buttstock