Buying gun for a friend...

[capntang]

Rather, asking a friend to buy one for me if it's legal.

I have a friend who lives on the other side of the same state. There is a shop that's local to him that has a good price on a firearm. The firearm in question is too inexpensive to have shipped and transferred, as doing so would increase the cost enough to negate any savings. Both my friend and I are legally permitted to purchase and possess firearms.

If he stops in and purchases the firearm on his way to visit me and we complete a private sale (legal in this state) of the firearm once he arrives, will we find ourselves in "straw purchase" territory?

 

[CoRoMo]

Yes. That is pretty much the textbook definition of a straw purchase as he'll be lying on question 12a. of the form 4473. These types of transaction happen every day and they are pretty much impossible to prevent because they are next to impossible to profile. There is almost no way for the dealer to know that it is happening, and of course, when the later private sale happens between the two individuals, there are no black helicopters watching it take place. But quite the federal violation, yes.

 

[capntang]

Well then, I guess I'll skip it.

I was under the impression that the other person needed to be unable to legally purchase or possess the firearm in order for it to be a straw purchase.

How would one go about gifting a new firearm in light of question 12a? I was under the impression that guns could be given as gifts provided the recipient is legally allowed to possess the firearm in question, but wouldn't that also require lying on 12a? Or am I wrong in my understanding that such gifts are legal?

 

[CoRoMo]

Page 165 of the 2005 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide:

Quote:
15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

Whether they can legally possess firearms or not, makes no difference.

The only exemption to question 12a is gifts. Buying a gun that is intended to be gifted, is perfectly legal. The person filling out the 4473 is honestly answering 12a because they are in fact the actual purchaser of the firearm. They are simply going to give it to someone thereafter.

 

[capntang]

Thank you very much for the information. That clarifies something I wasn't very sure about.

Guess I'll skip this sale and keep an eye out.

 

[CoRoMo]

The form 4473 has been changed recently and I can't find an image of the current one. Here is a link to a pdf of an unknown version of 4473.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

On this version, it is actually question # 11a, not 12a. But what I'd want you to look at is the fourth page where it gives a description/explanation of this form's question 11a. I'll try to attach a screen shot of it in a minute.

 

[Bovice]

let your friend buy you the gun, and you just pick up the bar tabs until your debts are paid. ha!

 

[CoRoMo]

ETA... I sort of think the description on the form I linked to is far from adequate. You should have the info you need though.

 

[MarkDozier]

Current form

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

The correct answer for your question is on page 4, question 11a.

 

[wishin]

The intent of the law was to preclude a felon or criminal from getting a gun through the auspices of someone who can legally buy one. The key element here is that your friend needs to buy the gun for himself, then you talk him into selling it to you when he visits.

 

[Geckgo]

How exactly is the transfer to take place. If you guys are planning on getting together soon you could always switch the gettogether from your house to his and then you two could "sneak off" to the firearms store

 

[capntang]

No, he's coming here for New Years along with several other old friends and some family, so a trip up there wouldn't work.

He may be in a generous mood. Perhaps I can talk him into buying me a late Christmas gift, and if I happen to pick up his bar tab while he's in town, so be it.

 

[TFred]

Current form

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

The correct answer for your question is on page 4, question 11a.

It's rather interesting, the examples in the instructions for question 11a do not cover the circumstance of this question.

The examples illustrate that you 1) may not buy a gun for someone else when they have given you the money with which you make the purchase, and 2) that you may buy a gun with your money to give as a gift.

The wording of question 11a does not speak to you buying a gun with your money, then selling it in a private transaction to someone else. It uses the non-defined phrase "on behalf of another person", which means... what?

The question at hand is clearly this: May you buy a gun with your own money for yourself, if you have a reasonable expectation that you may sell it to someone at a future date, which may or may not be defined?

I suspect that this would be fairly hard to convict if it ever got to a higher court, and there were competent defense attorneys, simply because this question requires the answerer to know the future. Last I checked, that was beyond must humans' capabilities. Anyone may or may not choose to sell a gun in the future, how can one possibly ever answer 11a with any level of certainty? It's just as ridiculous to hold a person to a "yes" intent as it would be to hold a person to a "no" intent.

The bottom line is that it comes down to yet another rule that impedes law abiding citizens rather than criminals. If the law is to prevent criminals from obtaining guns, then the rules for purchase should be limited to that end, and no more. In the "gift" part of the instruction, it tells you that you cannot give a gun to a prohibited person, why isn't that good enough for a purchase as well?

IANAL, so my opinion is worthless, but on the strict reading of the question and the instruction, I don't see how a purchase with your own money, that is then sold in the future to a non-prohibited person, could be illegal, especially since the "no" example specifically mentions using another person's money. If it were illegal to buy then resell, the example should not have used that specific situation of money changing hands prior to the sale.

I'm fairly certain that the BATFE would disagree with me, but they seem to have a bit of an agenda. They know that nobody wants to be the test case, so they have free reign to use what may very well be illegal rules on all of us.

TFred

 

[[email protected]]

Probably too late now... but

there is nothing illegal about your friend loaning you the gun... or gifting it to you.....

but be careful this weekend.....

Folks have been known to spend a couple hundred dollars in a 'friendly' poker game.... or on a wager over a bowl game.

 

[claiborne]

I had thought that you must maintain possession of a firearm you purchase for some period of time before selling it or gifting it away unless you are actually purchasing the firearm as a gift. The transfer would then be covered by the state firearm laws as long as the gifting or selling was legal under federal law and only if it was within state. Any transfer out of state must go through an FFL or C&R
In some states any transfer, selling, giving, gifting, loaning, must go through an FFL (California comes to mind).
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Cheers, happy new year!

 

[Sav .250]

Let him buy it then you can borrow it ,long term. I don`t believe there is anything that says you can`t ....borrow it. I`m thinking there is more than one way to skin a cat. Figure of speech of course.

 

[Gouranga]

Alright I am confused by this guys, so please allow a stupid question. So he cannot buy it IF he know he is going to sell it to someone else right away. He can buys it if he is going to give it to someone as a gift as long as he has no reason to believe that person cannot legally possess a firearm. So can he buy it for his bud, then meet at an FFL (for a fee I am sure) to get a 4473 filled out for the buddy and complete the sale that way?

I guess I am curious, is there any way he can legally buy the firearm and sell it to his buddy?

 

[Nautilus]

There are lots of gray area's in ATF regulations where the same actions repeated may fall on different sides of the law, the difference is "intent" which is very hard to prove.

For instance, lets say I walk in to a gun shop and buy a rifle. The next day I bring it over to my brothers house and we exchange $$$$ for it. That is the black and white of a straw purchase. But, for it to be a straw purchase, there had to be intent. Playing it out two ways... my brothers tells me he wants "X" rifle, so I go buy it, bring it to his house and he pays me back. That is a straw purchase. On the other hand I go to the gun shop, buy a rifle I want and then bring it to his house to test fire it. I don't like how it shoots & he does so he offers to buy it from me. That would not be a straw purchase because I was not intending to purchasing the rifle for my brother, although in black and white the purchase and sale of the rifle played out like a typical straw purchase.

The bottom line is, the ATF has no sense of humor. Lots of guys have believed they were dancing in a gray area only to find their dancing partner was an ATF agent with two left feet and a nasty fetish for handcuffs and jail cells. The scenario you asked about specifically happens thousands if not 10's of thousands of times a year with no issue's and often times the people probably have no idea they are breaking the law or they believe it is a non-issue because they trust the person they are buying the firearm for.

God forbid the firearm your friend buys for you gets stolen and used in a crime... you may find yourself staring across a desk from a federal agent who may or may not buy your story and what you and your friends actual intentions were. "Lost it in a card game" only 3 days after the 4473 was filled out sounds cute on THR, but I promise you if you had to actually use that excuse face to face with a couple guys in suits... they probably wont blink. lol

As has been pointed out by many above, these kind of crimes rarely are ever noticed and are very hard to convict, but the government has a history of not allowing that to stop them from trying in which case the $$$ saved on shipping and transfer fee's will seem like nothing if you are ever forced to defend yourself.

I guess I am curious, is there any way he can legally buy the firearm and sell it to his buddy?

Walk in to any gunshop and pay the transfer fee for the FFL to enter the firearm in his books, fill out a 4473, wait for him to make a phone call and walk back out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I guess I am curious, is there any way he can legally buy the firearm and sell it to his buddy?

Buying a gun with the intention of reselling it is, by itself, perfectly legal. In this case however buying it with the intention of selling it, when you already have the customer lined up, appears to me to be a straw purchase as mentioned.

If I see a smoking deal on a rifle somewhere and say "man I could make a couple bucks on that I gotta have it" then I am indeed the actual purchaser of the firearm since I have no destination in mind at the time.

If I see a gun and say "my buddy would like this I am going to buy it for him and he can pay me back/buy it from me" then that's a straw purchase since the intended actual purchaser of the firearm is not me. Yet I can give it to him as a gift, since I am the PURCHASER, not the recipient.

In this case since the intent from the beginning is to get a gun into anothers hands there isn't a way to do it. Even if he kept the gun for a year and then sold it there would still have been a straw purchase at the time of the sale.

Now, all that said, is this the kind of thing the law was intended to stop? Probably not, and it's stupid, but it is the law.

 

[TFred]

I firmly believe that the ambiguity of this particular rule is completely intentional and is designed to stop the otherwise perfectly legal private sales between individuals, in those states where such purchases are legal.

It's yet once again a rule whose violation can be accomplished completely in the absence of any criminal intent.

How we ever let any laws or rules get on the books that make you a criminal without having any actual criminal intent is beyond me, and is the beginning of the downfall of our system of government.

TFred

 

[honestlou]

If the friend buys the firearm with his own money, he is the actual purchaser of the firearm, and can answer "yes" to 11(a).

I am not aware of any time limits that a firearm must be held before being resold.
I can certainly buy a gun with the intention of reselling it.

The example given in the instructions specifies that person B gives the money to person A to buy the gun. As long as your friend buys it with his money, he can answer "yes" and is okay. He is the actual purchaser. What he intends to do with it later is not relevant. The friend can buy the gun and drive across the state, and there is nothing obligating you to buy it from him. Any later sale from him to you is a separate event and a non-issue as long as you are both legally able to buy and sell.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[billybob44]

Rather, asking a friend to buy one for me if it's legal.

I have a friend who lives on the other side of the same state. There is a shop that's local to him that has a good price on a firearm. The firearm in question is too inexpensive to have shipped and transferred, as doing so would increase the cost enough to negate any savings. Both my friend and I are legally permitted to purchase and possess firearms.

If he stops in and purchases the firearm on his way to visit me and we complete a private sale (legal in this state) of the firearm once he arrives, will we find ourselves in "straw purchase" territory?

Yes, it is NOW that you have posted for the whole world to know that your friend is buying a gun for you. I know many people that have bought firearms only to sell them/trade them, a short time later, just because they wanted to.
There is no one on this Forum that can condone a "Straw Purchase"-that's not to say that there is anything wrong to change ownership of a firearm simply because it does not fit the current owner.

 

[The Real Wyatt]

Okay.

A cuppla years ago I bought matching guns for my wife and I. She immediately didn't like the gun; thought it was too big and heavy for her (stupid of me to buy a gun, sight unseen, for her anyway.)

Two days later I sell the gun to my next-door neighbor (who is legally entitled to own a gun) for the exact amount I paid for it.

Can this be considered to be a Straw Purchase?

 

[HOME DEPOT GEORGE]

Wyatt that is not a straw purchase since there is no intent. You simply are selling a gun you don't want anymore

 

[Sam1911]

Wyatt that is not a straw purchase since there is no intent. You simply are selling a gun you don't want anymore

Exactly right.