C&S 1911 extractors

[1911 buff]

1911tuner question

I have used the C&S spring steel extractors in the past and they are (or were) the best out there in my opinion. I am in the process of another 1911 build and thought I'd call C&S just to double check that the extractors were still being made within JB original specs, as their original info they had on their site seems to have been taken down.

When I called they would not confirm the steel and just stated "it was made of the best steel possible." I asked them to check further for me. When they got back to me they wouldn't confirm the steel parameters again, and just repeated their original comment that it was made of "the best steel possible" - somewhat disconcerting.

Do you know if their extractors are still made per JB's original specs? I know that I as well as alot of other 1911 affectionatos want to know absolutely that we are putting JMB spec 1070 or 1090 spring steel extractors in our guns, within his original specs. Any light you can shed on this subject would be greatly appreciated!

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't know if C&S uses the original steel alloy. Their response seems to be a bit evasive, so I wouldn't bet on it too heavily. Their extractors seem to be very good, but they don't come without issues...or at least the ones that I've used did.

The consistent thing that I've noticed is that the claw is too long from the tip to the surface of the tensioning wall, and requires a little adjustment to keep it from bottoming out in the case extractor groove. I also like to cut a light bevel into the bottom of the wall to facilitate the case rim entry, and I like to lightly radius the bottom corner of the claw to provide a little clearance with the inside face of the case rim as the round angles up to enter the chamber. All SOP for me and many others...and they know it.

And as the quote goes: There's the rub."

C&S plainly states that they'll not honor the warranty if they see evidence that so much as a piece of sandpaper has touched the extractor...even though the aforementioned adjustments are exactly like the ones that their smiths will make if you send the gun to them after having problems.

To me, this is...questionable...to put it nicely. I can see it if the extractor has been butchered, but they can easily see the difference in the work between a skilled hand and Bubba the Buffoon. What conclusions that you draw from this is up to you.

Several years ago...when my dwindling supply of real USGI extractors dropped to critical levels...I made the switch to Wilson Heavy-Duty extractors, and I haven't looked back. They're a little better than the Bulletproof units, and they're a buck or two cheaper from Brownells.

The original spec is listed as: "1090 special steel, of austenitic grain size 7 or smaller, hardened and drawn to spring temper."

 

[1911 buff]

Update

Okay, I finally got to a very nice and knowlegable smith at C&S and he confirmed their extractors were still made of spring steel sonewhere between 1040 I believe and 1090. He did say that the hooks were a little long and needed adjusting. I for one will probably go that way again just because it makes the most sense to me. I must admit I don't know how to do this myself (adjust the hook) but would like to learn.

I also fully recognize that this is not the only solution and think you are absolutely correct about the Wilson extractors Tuner. I have a Bulletproof in a gun, and was told Mr. Wilson had one he recently replaced at 55m rounds "just because."

Both companies Wilson and C&S also thought 20000 rounds and up were good numbers for extractor life depending on how well they were fitted to begin with. So I guess the conclusion I would draw is take your pick between these two - whatever makes you happy.

If anyone could describe how to properly shape the C&S hook it would be greatly appreciated.

A special thanks again to 1911tuner for sharing his tremendous knowlege with us.

 

[1911 buff]

For anyone who is considering this extractor, I would now recommend against it. I had a similar experience as I believe Tuner did with this extractor. Mine recently failed after a total of 3900 rounds. I replaced it with a Wilson BP. I consider myself somewhat of a JMB purist, but in this case when it comes to extractors, I now feel that newer is better. Hopes this helps someone out there who is considering a replacement or new build.
Best

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Thanks for the update.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mine recently failed after a total of 3900 rounds.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the extractor. The magazine may be at the root of it by not adequately controlling the last round or two, and letting the cartridge get into the chamber ahead of the slide...forcing the claw to climb the rim. That knocks the tension out of extractors, and snaps off hooks.

I've got an extractor on duty in a moderately-used range pistol that I robbed from a junk 1918 Colt slide in the late 80s. It's been there for probably 20,000 rounds, and it hasn't needed any attention at all other than periodic removal for cleaning.

 

[kcshooter]

I made the switch to Wilson Heavy-Duty extractors, and I haven't looked back. They're a little better than the Bulletproof

I've been using the Bulletproof series for several years now, and I'm a big fan of them. What is it about the HD series that is better over the Bulletproof series?

I've not used any of the HD series, as I just figured the Bulletproof was the better of the two.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think he means just that. The Wilson HD extractors are "a little" better.

I agree but I would have no qualms about using a Bulletproof either. The fact the Wilson's cost less is another point he made as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

What is it about the HD series that is better over the Bulletproof series?

It's a little tougher...a little harder to bend for tension, and thus holds tension a little longer. It's a buck or so cheaper from Brownells. The Bulletproof is an excellent extractor. The Heavy Duty is just...a little better.

 

[1911 buff]

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the extractor. The magazine may be at the root of it by not adequately controlling the last round or two, and letting the cartridge get into the chamber ahead of the slide...forcing the claw to climb the rim. That knocks the tension out of extractors, and snaps off hooks.

I've got an extractor on duty in a moderately-used range pistol that I robbed from a junk 1918 Colt slide in the late 80s. It's been there for probably 20,000 rounds, and it hasn't needed any attention at all other than periodic removal for cleaning.

Anything's possible, but in this case I don't suspect the mags. Wilson ETM. Not a fan of 47D, never had good luck with them, but the ETMs I like very much. Doesn't mean it couldn't be so, just not first on my list of suspects. Could the extractor length have had anything to do with it?

Despite the company feedback I still don't think we can rule out metallurgy either. Now your original 1918 extractor, that's another story. I'd have that in a NY minute if I had one I knew was new and not a second. I should have been specific to the "old vs new" design in my update as relating to C&S and not the original manufacture real deal extractor - matter of fact I looked high and low for one just couldn't locate a reliable supply. I have the bulletproof in another gun (same mags by the way) but can't tell you personally how long they last cause I haven't worn one out yet, but I'm making a diligent effort. Claw didn't look beat up on the C&S either, but I don't presume to know what you do Tuner...that's why I started this thread to get your insights. Just trying to get a better understanding and appreciate the input.

I for one am done with the C&S extractor though barring any drastic revelations. Oh, forgot to say the springs are all fresh in the mags also. Thanks again! And God Bless everyone.

 

[1911Tuner]

Claw didn't look beat up on the C&S either.

The claw wouldn't look beat up from impacting brass...but studying your fired brass will tell you if you have rounds jumping the magazine.

You'll see sharp burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims, with signs of an impact slightly inboard of those burrs. Check for it. If it's there...your magazine isn't adequately controlling the last round or two.

 

[1911 buff]

Great, I'll look.

Thanks

 

[1911 buff]

The claw wouldn't look beat up from impacting brass...but studying your fired brass will tell you if you have rounds jumping the magazine.

You'll see sharp burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims, with signs of an impact slightly inboard of those burrs. Check for it. If it's there...your magazine isn't adequately controlling the last round or two.

Tuner...Friday is usually range day so I checked the brass today (this is now the BP extractor). Tried to collect last two cases as best I could, and at the end loaded 2 rounds in each mag and collected the last round and examined. In total I had maybe one suspect with a nick but no burr, in the rim and no witness mark inboard of it. That could have come from the impact of the brass flying around? Couldn't say - but otherwise everything looked good. But that was interesting - I learned something - thanks. What do you think? Sound ok?

What do you think of the Wilson ETM's? What do you like in mags and why if it's not off topic?

 

[1911Tuner]

I'd have to see a picture to make a call on it. The burrs aren't very big in any event.

Never tried an ETM magazine.

 

[1911 buff]

Yep, no burrs large or small, just the one nick.

 

[1911Tuner]

Maybe just a bad extractor, then.

 

[1911 buff]

Tuner
What does it mean when you have a tiny wittness mark or "dig" on the 26 degree angle of the case but, and here's the kicker, no mark at all on the case rim? Something to be concerned about?

Please tell us your favorite self defense magazine or magazines. I personally use 230 gold dot.

Thanks and God Bless

 

[1911Tuner]

It means that the nose of the extractor is taking a hit from the case when the pressure and recoil force slams it back against the breechface...and, yes...it'll break an extractor. Careful filing at the proper angle can create a little clearance...but it has to be at such an angle so as not to shorten the claw. (Tip of the hook to the tensioning wall)

You don't need much clearance. Just a sliver of light between the nose and the ramp with the case pushed flat against the breechface will do.