CA Pawnbroker & stolen handgun

[wyocarp]

Everyone loses. I bought a bedframe once that was stolen. I had no idea. I bought a mattress to fit the slightly unusual California King size frame and sheets and stuff.

The police came and took it because the thief told them who he sold it to. I was out almost $1,000. It was a nice brass frame.

I think that once an item has been sold to a third party, it should remain there if the third party knew nothing of the history of the item.

Heck, none of it is right, but is it right to now harm another person?

 

[Runningman]

Let see an FFL dealer has stolen property and is aware of it but fails to return it to the rightful owner. A call to the BATF would be interesting.

 

[LanceThruster]

Update - My co-worker gave the info from here to his brother. I learned it's a long barrel blued .357 Magnum in great shape. He told the pawnbroker he was going to small claims court and the pawnbroker said that maybe "they can work something out" which leads me to believe that they don't have much confidence that they would win. I told my friend to have his brother register here to provide further details or at least keep me updated on the final resolution.

I will make sure everyone knows how this eventually turns out. Much appreciation for all the comments and suggestions. I'm glad I opened the thread.

 

[ArmedBear]

Heck, none of it is right, but is it right to now harm another person?

Yes -- unlike a bedframe, a pawnbroker in California has the means and the responsibility to verify the ownership of the handgun. His negligence, his loss. That's business.

 

[richyoung]

I've had to buy back my own guitar once - I offered to "split the difference" on the actual ammount loaned on it, and the owner agreed. Cheaper than going to court....and faster, too. Have your friend try that.

 

[deadin]

This has been an interesting discussion but there are a couple of things that just don’t smell right. The first being the police saying that the gun hadn’t been involved in a crime. (other than being stolen.) How could they know unless they had it “in custody” at some time after it was stolen and had done forensics on it? If they did and had reason to check it against known crime data, don’t you think it would have been run against the stolen list at that time?
Another that has already been discussed is knowing it was stolen, why was it left with the pawn broker? Every pawn broker/gunshop owner I’ve known has had a stolen gun come across their counter and lost it to the police. They might be upset about it but all have recognized that it is one of the hazards of doing that type of business and is figured into the profit/loss.

Another question that wasn’t mentioned is did the original owner recoup any insurance on the loss? If he did, there is now another entity that has an interest in the outcome. The gun technically belongs to the insurance company and maybe he should be dealing with them and let them deal with the pawnbroker.

 

[LanceThruster]

gun involved in crime (theft of gun)

I asked about the insurance question, but as far as I know, there wasn't a claim submitted. The police (in)action doesn't seem right to me either, but those are the details I was given.

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, you can always get the police involved. The police let him know where to get it. I imagine they just don't want to waste their time on something so routine. If the pawnbroker doesn't want to give it up, the police can be involved to enforce property laws.

 

[DCR]

It's stolen property!

Seems to me the police are trying to pass this one off - technically, the pawnbroker is in possession of stolen property - a crime in itself - but the police don't want to take it up as a criminal matter and want the rightful owner and pawnbroker to handle it as a civil matter. Take it up the food chain - he should contact the supervisor of the involved officers and work his way up.

 

[LanceThruster]

Statute from a police officer

I posted this same thread at calguns.net forum as they deal specifically with CA firearms issues. Here is what a former police officer wrote. Take special note of section c paragraph 2. The law neither requires nor prohibits reimbursing the pawnbroker. It also shows that if the owner takes no action to either press charges or recover the piece, after 60 days, the pawnbroker CAN treat it like a legal sale. Maybe that is why the cops have chosen to pretty much stay out of it.

The victim/owner is working with the pawnbroker and letting him know his next step will be small claims. The pawnbroker seems to be realizing he is not dealing with a pushover. The weapon is valuable enough (~$800+/- an S&W .357 Model 19 blued carbon steel w/ 6" barrel) to be worth the hassle to reclaim it. I am told he very much appreciates all your assistance. I am also impressed with all of your willingness to share your knowledge and observations on this particular issue. It's very good to know that when I need some worthwhile advice on things (even if it's just where to look), there is a wealth of experience here. Thanks to all again.

For those wanting to see the responses given there the thread link is: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=166116


[full quote excerpted below]

------

Here is the citation..sorry for the length

Business and Professions Code 21647:
(a) Whenever any peace officer has probable cause to believe
that property, except coins, monetized bullion, or "commercial grade
ingots" as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 21627, in the
possession of a pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer is
stolen, the peace officer may place a hold on the property for a
period not to exceed 90 days. When a peace officer places a hold on
the property, the peace officer shall give the pawnbroker, secondhand
dealer, or coin dealer a written notice at the time the hold is
placed, describing the item or items to be held. During that period
the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer shall not release
or dispose of the property, except pursuant to a court order or upon
receipt of a written authorization signed by any peace officer who is
a member of the law enforcement agency of which the peace officer
placing the hold on the property is a member. A pawnbroker,
secondhand property dealer, or coin dealer shall not be subject to
civil liability for compliance with this section.

(b) Whenever property that is in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer, whether or not the property has
been placed on hold, is required by a peace officer in a criminal
investigation, the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer,
upon reasonable notice, shall produce the property at reasonable
times and places or may deliver the property to the peace officer
upon the request of any peace officer.

(c) Whenever a law enforcement agency has knowledge that property
in the possession of a pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer
has been reported as lost or stolen, the law enforcement agency shall
notify in writing the person who reported the property as lost or
stolen of the following:

(1) The name, address, and telephone number of the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer who reported the acquisition of the
property.
(2) That the law neither requires nor prohibits payment of a fee
or any other condition in return for the surrender of the property,
except that when the person who reported the property lost or stolen
does not choose to participate in the prosecution of an identified
alleged thief, the person shall pay the pawnbroker, secondhand
dealer, or coin dealer the "out-of-pocket" expenses paid in the
acquisition of the property in return for the surrender of the
property.
(3) That if the person who reported the property as lost or stolen
takes no action to recover the property from the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer within 60 days of the mailing of
the notice, the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may
treat the property as other property received in the ordinary course
of business. During the 60-day notice period, the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may not release the property to any
other person.
(4) That a copy of the notice, with the address of the person who
reported the property as lost or stolen deleted, will be mailed to
the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer who is in
possession of the property.

(d) When property that is in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer is subject to a hold as provided in
subdivision (a), and the property is no longer required for the
purpose of a criminal investigation, the law enforcement agency that
placed the hold on the property shall release the hold on the
property. When the law enforcement agency has knowledge that the
property has been reported lost or stolen, the law enforcement agency
shall then make notification to the person who reported the property
as lost or stolen pursuant to subdivision (c).

(e) If a pledgor seeks to redeem property that is subject to a
hold, the pawnbroker shall advise the pledgor of the name of the
peace officer who placed the hold on the property and the name of the
law enforcement agency of which the officer is a member. If the
property is not required to be held pursuant to a criminal
prosecution the hold shall be released.

(f) Whenever information regarding allegedly lost or stolen
property is entered into the Department of Justice automated property
system or automated firearms system, and the property is thereafter
identified and found to be in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer, and the property is thereafter
placed on a hold pursuant to this section and the hold, including any
additional hold, is allowed to lapse, or 60 days elapse following
the delivery of the notice required to be given by this section to
the person who reported the property to be lost or stolen without a
claim being made by that person, whichever is later, the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may mail under a Certificate of
Mailing issued by the United States Post Office, addressed to the law
enforcement agency that placed the property on hold, a written
request to delete the property listing from the Department of Justice
automated property system or automated firearms system, as is
applicable. Within 30 days after the request has been mailed, the
law enforcement agency shall either cause the property listing to be
deleted as requested or place a hold on the property. If no law
enforcement agency takes any further action with respect to the
property within 45 days after the mailing of the request, the
pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may presume that the
property listing has been deleted as requested and may thereafter
deal with the property accordingly, and shall not be subject to
liability arising from the failure of the removal of the property
listing from the Department of Justice automated property system or
automated firearms system.

(g) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter the
authority of a peace officer to seize property pursuant to any other
provision of statutory or case law.

[end excerpt]

 

[t165]

If you cannot find a state remedy then contact the ATF. I'm sure they would like to be made aware of a pawn shop that buys stolen guns. In my opinion the pawn shop owner is a crook if he knows the gun is stolen and will not return it to the rightful owner...regardless of what California law states. My local gun shop owner caught a juvenile stealing a handgun from his store about 3 weeks ago. The police were called and the case was turned over to the ATF. The ATF came and investigated the next day...found the juvenile and took him into custody again. It turned out he had stolen other firearms a few days earlier. He is sitting in the juvenile correctional facility built just out side of town. The ATF gets a bad rap but they do not want criminals and the mentally ill to posess firearms any more than you or I.

 

[InRemorse]

I think the political and legal climate of California make everyone grumpy and short of doing their best. The police get a kick to the balls by some hot shot Commie if they do an efficient job.

 

[LanceThruster]

latest update - going to small claims court

As most are well aware, the wheels of justice turn slowly.

Just heard from my co-worker that his brother finally filed papers in small claims court. He said that the pawnshop owner kept saying that he wanted to work something out but seemed to continue to drag his feet (not sure what offers or counter-offers were made). It appears that the pawnbroker wanted to wear him down in the hope that he'd just give up.

I am glad that this will go to court if only to provide a definite resoluion that other can refer to should anyone else find themselves in a similar situation.

I'll let you all know the outcome as soon as I do. I'll also find out the court date so I'll know when to expect a decision.

 

[Rockwell1]

Were you able to keep the pawn broker from selling the gun in the mean time?

 

[Buck Snort]

InRemorse wrote" "I think the political and legal climate of California make everyone grumpy and short of doing their best. The police get a kick to the balls by some hot shot Commie if they do an efficient job."

Uh, ya gotta link?!!

 

[mgkdrgn]

Let see an FFL dealer has stolen property and is aware of it but fails to return it to the rightful owner. A call to the BATF would be interesting.

+1 on the BATFE call .... but talk to the pawn shop first again and let them know that is your next move. They may suddenly decide that they -can- do something for you.

Or, wait for them to sell it, and nail the buyer as having received KNOWN stolen goods. Let that party take on the pawnshop.

 

[LanceThruster]

Re: #39

Seems that the general consensus was that the pawnbroker would be unable to sell the weapon legally (though a few insisted he would).

He hasn't as of yet as they were still trying to work out a compromise.

Over at the CalGuns.net forum, there's a gun dealer who wrote this:

"Originally Posted by laguns

Waste of time. I was sued once by an attorney no less. I faxed him copies of the laws governing second hand dealers but he went foreword with the small claims suit anyway. Of course I won the case. The law is clear, second hand dealers have to be reimbursed.

Look, it's a crappy situation, but if I just hand the gun over then I become the victim." http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2325417#post2325417

 

[DCR]

Can't wait for the results -

After reading the subsequent posts, I agree that the pawnbroker was both hoping to recover something on the gun from you (which he has no right to) and stalling to try and get beyond the 60-day period so he could treat it as legitimate inventory and sell it under the posted section. Hope the case got filed in time! If it did, it should be the shortest contested small claims case on the docket that day.

 

[Rockwell1]

If he can't sell it why not simply offer him 100.00$? It's more than he'd get otherwise.

Ultimately do you want the gun or do you want to be right?

 

[LanceThruster]

Broker wants what he paid ($300)

Broker wants what he paid ($300) and will not go lower apparently. I also believe the owner has taken the necessary actions so that it does not go into that 60-day period whereafter the pawnbroker can sell it legally.

I am anxiously awaiting the outcome myself and will provide a full report on the judgement.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Lawsuit? I suppose so long as its small claims it won't cost much other than filing fees, service of process and hopefully recovery of both fees.

BTW, I Concur with NavyLt about filing a stolen property report. Pawn shop owner has possession, but not title to the item. Title remains with the victim. After the report has been filed, speak with the inspector about getting it back. Pawn shop should eat this one. That's one of the risks of that line of work.