Cabela's Hawkins 54 Sabot

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FForF

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Hey Everyone,
New to this site. I have been BP shooting for a few years and have reciently tried the Thompson Center Mag Express Sabots XTP Bullet in 250 grain in my Cabela's Hawkins 54

Initial grouping looks pretty good. I was wondering if anyone has tried these in a similar gun?

Not sure of the sabots will perform well in a medium twist 1 in 48" like this gun. I was using Coex 3F in 80 grains. Would 2F be better for these pistol bulleted sabots?

Anybody out there have some experience and willing to offer it up to save me some time.
 
I don't have first hand experience shooting sabots out of a medium twist .54, so I used the search function for >>>> .54 sabots <<<< here and on thefiringline.com blackpowder forum. What I read about over and over from mostly .54 TC shooters was that the medium twist .54's shoot conicals with heavy powder charges of ffg the best, better than anything else including patched round balls.
Not one post mentioned shooting sabots well even though it's admittedly only a limited sample. Now when it comes to .50 caliber medium twist guns, there's plenty of evidence that sabots shoot fairly well with the 1 in 48" twist. But the evidence is just lacking for the .54. It doesn't mean that they won't shoot, it's just that's the evidence that came up in the search results this time around.
The conical bullets that shot great that were mentioned time and again were the Hornady Great Plains bullets, Buffalo bullets & TC Maxi's in bullet weights of about 400 - 500 grains. These conicals create quite a bit of recoil but have devasting results on game and reportedly deliver great accuracy out to 100+ yards with up to 110 grains of ffg or so. Some people don't shoot with quite that much Goex but high RPM's might be important.
I do wonder whether the type of powder might have an effect on accuracy since Goex does burn quite hot and the plastic might be affected somehow. It's possible that using a wool wad bore button or a heavy card wad as a gas check might help to reduce the effects of the heat. Maybe experimenting with a different caliber of bullet/sabot combo. might produce better results too.
Why does the .50 shoot sabots better than the .54? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't throw in the towel too quickly if you've already gotten fair results with sabots so far. But whether you decide to go with conicals or not probably depends on what you're striving for, devastating accuracy and power or just a satisfactory sabot load that shoots well enough. If shooting sabots is as accurate as patched balls with a heavy hunting load, then go for it and accept them for how they shoot, or keep trying different ones.
Why not report some of your sabot results here and add them to the growing THR database? :)

Look for the posts with the bold red letters for relevant info., or repeat the search and/or try an advanced search of your own:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=21471&highlight=.54+hawkins

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=51278&highlight=.54+sabot

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=112589&highlight=.54+sabot

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=110614&highlight=.54+sabot

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=125333&highlight=.54+sabot

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220479&highlight=.54+sabot
 
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Thanks arcticap,
That was great information and kind of sends me off more confident in the direction I was heading. I to have had great shooting out of this old gun using the 400- 500 grain bufflo bullets and it does well with the patch and ball once I dialed down the charge a bit.

I was just hoping with the sabots in 250 grain I might get a little flatter shooting round. I just ordered some more sabots in different sizes and shapes so I'll be doing some different loads and will definately post up my results.

Michael
 
I shoot a TC Renegade .54 (1:48) and the following combo performs beyond my expectations being both hard-hitting and ACCURATE:

Bullet: Hornady .452 XTP Mag. http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/product/0020975210321a.shtml

Powder: (110) grns. Shockleys OR American Powder (BP substitutes)
http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/

Sabot: MMP 54/.451-.452 cal. Sabots
http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Primer: Remington
http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0006579210239a.shtml
BTW the "price" is a Misprint...:what:

This combo shoots 2 1/2" groups with (vernier peep sights) and the occasional 1 5/8" on a good day off thre bench.

Ron
 
Thanks RonSC,
Ordering now. What is the difference between a #10 and #11 primer?

Michael
 
Hey RonSC,
In the load you posted I would assume you are using the American Powder in FFG?
 
FForF, I wouldn't recommend using APP ffg in any gun with a patent breech. It's granulation is noticiably larger than other ffg's. The APP fffg has a larger granulation than other fffg's too, and even the APP fffg is not too much finer than regular ffg.
The larger ffg APP granulation is more acceptable for use in an inline maybe, but definitely not recommended in a sidelock with less direct ignition IMO. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks Arcticap,
What would you recommend for my Cabela's Hawkin 54 for the sabot load RonSC posted? I have been shooting Coex FFFG and FFG out of it.

I have bought everything but the powder.
 
FForF Hey RonSC,
In the load you posted I would assume you are using the American Powder in FFG?

arcticap:
Yes it is ffg. I initially had the same impression about APP/ Shockleys Gold as well, but after using it extensivley, I experienced only (2) hang/misfires after several hundred rounds. The basic difference between APP and SG is that SG is basicly a "premium" version of AAP in that the granulation is more refined and therefore more consistent with respect to grain "size"..(similar to the difference between Pyrodex and Pyrodex Premium. Admitedly both are a far cry consistency-wise in grain size when compared to ffg in genuine 'black powder'. In comparison the SG/APP look like something that belongs in the bottom of a fish tank...:eek: :) Just a cursory inspection would lead one to wonder how such a course-grained powder could ignite with anything less than a "thermite primed cap"...?? However, odly enough AAP and SG IS reccomended by the manufacturer for sidelocks. The key to consistent ignition (at least in my experience) has been the selection of primers. The Remington #11 Caps are the key. Very hot as compared to CCI. RWS are another good cap. Cheaper caps such as CVA and various imports simply do not "cut" it where these powders are concerned. The load I mentioned has been so consistent in my Renegade that It has become my favorite. The .452 dia 240 grn. XTP Mag (item #45220)
or the .452 dia 250 grn. XTP (item # 45200) are both great choices. The 240 grainer however gets my vote due to its tougher construction and the fact that it is rated for velocities suitable for ML's rated @ 1100-2200 fps and weight retention has been in the 90% range and expansion has been terrific in those rare times that pass-thru does not occur. In my exprience at least, anything larger (270-300 grn ) will not stablize in a 1:48" as you mentioned. As far as ignition issues are concerned, milage may/will vary with each rifle. If this becomes a real issue you can hedge your bet by using a RWS Musket cap/nipple. Thus far I have not needed to do this. The real bonus to this combo is the ease of clean-up. This alone has made it an absolute pleasure to shoot. Most of my friends shooting modern sidelocks were hesitant to even try the newer BP 'substitutes' but now swear by them. I admit that the .54/.45 sabot combo is not ideal but ya' gotta shoot what ya' got...:) Just as an aside, my shooting buddy uses this same Bullett in TWO .50 cal TC Hawken rifles (powder and sabot adjusted for caliber) and my .54 w/ peep sights will routinely shoot 25-30% tighter than both his scoped rifles..!!:eek: Give 'em a try and I'll bet you'll never look back...:) BTW your posts have been VERY informative..Kudo's to you!

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=c824f8a3cf4470d4fa95f4c7b72957e0

Ron
 
Thanks RonSC, some of the Lyman/Cabela's/Investarms owners do report experiencing ignition problems with their brand new guns. It's usually always attributed to the nipple, once it's replaced with a better one the problems usually disappear. Since Black Powder is the easiest to ignite, switching to the APP ffg could become more problematic, but as you found in your TC, not necessarily.
However, while using the APP fffg shouldn't cause a major accuracy difference, one never knows until it's tried.
Plus it is a different make and model of gun., TC vs. Investarms, and not everything is going to be equal.

FForF, why not try shooting a couple of rounds with your ffg BP and fffg BP before you buy more powder?
At least you'll have a base line for comparison with any other powder.
If this is for hunting, the only shot that really matters is the first one out of a cold, clean barrel. And maybe even a second to simulate a follow up shot.
Then compare your 3 or 4 shots to your hunting accuracy needs and expectations.
And then decide if you want to shoot the APP.
Or else just save the BP for shooting patched roundballs.
I've been shooting the APP fffg out of my .54 inline with an #11 cap, and it's never failed. I shoot mostly Pyrodex otherwise, and if using Pyrodex for hunting, I load with Pyrodex P.
The are several reasons for using fffg or P. Substitute powders [besides 777] especially benefit from consistent compaction, and since fffg has less air space, it's compacts with less variation. Also, the smaller grains flow into the flash channel of sidelocks a little better to promotes good ignition. However, when using real black powder, it's not as clear cut, with some preferring ffg and others favoring fffg, but fffg is used by the minority among those who shoot the .54's.
Whichever powder or granulation you decide to buy or shoot, there's usually alternatives. If you did buy the APP ffg, and you wanted to better insure ignition, you could first drop 10 or 20 grains of some fffg black powder into the breach as an ignition catalyst, and then drop the rest of the load of APP on top it to make a duplex load. Some flintlock shooters do this.
Pyrodex P can produce good results too if you don't mind using a more corrosive powder. Like BP fffg, P produces a little less fouling residue compared to ffg or Pyrodex RS, but remember loads do need to be reduced by 10% volume to be equivalent, and maximum loads aren't always necessary for best accuracy. :)
 
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I can't thank you guys enough. Received the sabots and bullets and should get the primers today. Can't wait to get out and do some shooting. Unfurtunately can't go this weekend.
 
Results from RonSc Cabelas .54 Hawken Sabot Load

Well finally got time to get out and do some shooting and had suprising results with this load.

Bullet: Hornady .452 XTP Mag. http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/produ...5210321a.shtml

Powder: (110) grns. Shockleys OR American Powder (BP substitutes)
http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/

Sabot: MMP 54/.451-.452 cal. Sabots
http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Primer: Remington
http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0006579210239a.shtml

The saboted bullet almos fell down the barrel it was so loose. I shot a few and they tumbled in flight. Was truley amazing and actually kind of fun to see it happen. Something is definately wrong here.

What do you think RonSC?

I'm still trying to find a good flat shooting load for my .54.
 
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