cal .40 Super - Feedback / comments?

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ccopelan

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Has anyone here owned or shot *anything* in .40 Super? I'm curious about initial reactions & the overall experience. I really like the idea, but before I plunk down hundreds of $$ for a conversion for my 1911, I want to hear from others about their experiences with this caliber.

The Development of the .40 Super

In 1994 Triton released a cartridge called the .45 Super. Essentially, the .45 Super is based on a .451 Detonics case trimmed to .45 ACP length. Pioneered by writers Dean Grennell and the late Tom Ferguson, the .45 Super raised the performance level for .45 ACP-chambered autos beyond that of the .45 ACP+P and even the 10mm.

In 1996 Triton began development of a new cartridge designed to achieve even greater velocity and energy. The .40 Super began as a .45 Super necked to .40 caliber. In an effort to maximize case capacity, the cartridge case was lengthened to .992" (same as the 10mm). Final design improvements included an increased thickness of the cartridge case walls and the use of a small primer pocket

The .40 Super design is a true hybrid. A combination of the best attributes of the .45 Auto, .45 Super, 10mm and .45 Winchester Magnum.

The Power & Versatility of the .40 Super

The .40 Super will drive a 135 grain bullet to an unprecedented 1,800 feet per second while generating less chamber pressure than the Winchester 9 X 23. With a 200 grain bullet, the .40 Super delivers more foot/pounds of energy at 100 yards than the .45 ACP does at the muzzle.

From a reloader's standpoint, there is tremendous versatility in the .40 Super. Bullet weights currently on the market range from 125 to 200 grains. Loads can be developed with a dozen powders. Small Pistol Magnum or Small Rifle primers can be utilized. Brass is available from both Triton and Starline Brass Company.

The Triton factory loadings for the .40 Super are designed to meet the needs of law enforcement tactical teams, competitive shooters, hunters and those concerned with personal defense.

The .40 Super Quik-Shok 135 grain TT (Team Triton) is designed as a dual purpose load. It meets the needs of competitive shooting and law enforcement as a reduced recoil yet high-performance load. The Quik-Shok 155 grain delivers the full house performance you'd expect from the .40 Super. The Hi-Vel loads range from the 135 grain screamer at 1,800 fps to the long range 200 grain at 1,300 fps. The CQD Frangible 130 grain is ideal where full performance is needed but ricochet is a concern. The Team Triton Competitor 135 grain .40 Super is designed as a low recoil load specifically for range/competitive use.

The Gun

Many semi-autos can accommodate the .40 Super. Semi-autos already chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge are the easiest to convert. This is accomplished by simply swapping out the .45 ACP barrel with the .40 Super barrel and upgrading the recoil spring system with a heavy duty spring. Existing .45 ACP magazines can be utilized.

Handguns already converted to .40 Super include the S&W 4506, Glock 21, Glock 30, SIG P220, HK USP (full size) and the 1911 Government Model (and it's variants).
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Heh, wonder if anybody will ever neck down the .40 super to .355... think 124gr @ 2000fps from a 5" barrel.... That would make one HELL of a muzzle flash!
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That's basically what .38 Casull is.

As for the .40 Super, it is an obscure wildcat that really isn't worth the trouble, especially given the business troubles of the one source of (expensive) factory ammo, Triton.
 
Except .400 Cor-Bon is just an inferior version of 10mm Auto. :D

Seriously, if I was going to play with a .45 ACP-based wildcat, I'd go with .460 Rowland. If you are going to spend the money, you might as well get the really hot ballistics out of it.
 
I was really excited about this cartridge at first and almost bought a Springfield longslide to convert to it, but then Triton went out of business and that project went on hold. The idea of the hyper velocity loads just got me all excited.

In the future I still plan on making a "magnum" 1911, but it will probably be a 460 Rowland.
 
A .460 Rowland gun would be a heck of a thing. Best bet would probably be a long dustcover longslide 6"er with a bull barrel & an efficient comp, I think. Single stack so it actually runs reliably, which might be a trick since you are about 3x the muzzle energy of GI hardball with that caliber. Without a comp I think the slide velocity would be too high to feed reliably & you'd pound the gun into bits. But that's just guessing on my part.
 
Yeah, too bad Triton went under. I've reloaded and fired some .40 Supers. They're accurate and flat-shooting. Wouldn't spend "hundreds" for a conversion, though. Problem now is finding .40 Super brass. There's no brass that you can "just neck down" like you can .45ACP to .400 Cor-Bon.
 
I really liked the idea of this cartridge. Wish Cor-Bon or one of the other manufacturers would pick it up. Nothing like velocity.
 
Speaking of necking-down ...


... don't forget about the 9x25 Dillon (a 10mm case necked down to .355/9mm). Capable of 124gns @ 1800fps, I believe.

'Course, it's still a 9mm, but hey ... ;)
 
What's the shell length of 45 Win Mag?

Speaking of necking down things, for anyone who has seen .32NAA caliber and liked it, NAA now has plans to make a .25NAA caliber by necking a .32 shell down to a .25 projectile.

Last but not least, brass is (or at least was...) available through Starline Brass as well as Triton, and Triton is still "online" at tritonammo.com
 
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Silly me, if I want a “.40 Superâ€, I’d get a 10mm – the round the “short and weak†was derived from in the first place. To put it another way, an anemic 10mm is a .40 S&W.
 
10mm.....more ammo available in more of a selection. Probably cheaper and more vesatile.....

But not as MUCH energy as the 40 Super........from a 5" barrel the 135gr Triton has a 1700 FPS velocity.......over 850 FPE......

It has as much energy at 100 yds as MOST 10mm ammo produces at the muzzle.......according to the numbers anyway............

It would be a hell of a fun gun.........................

Shoot well.
 
The obvious question is, what does 135gr @ 1,800 (.40 Super) actually DO that 135gr @ 1,600 (10mm Auto) doesn't? In fact, given that the .40 Super numbers are from a 5" barrel and the 10mm numbers are from a 4.6" barrel, can we reliably say that there is any real-world ballistic difference between the two at all?

http://www.doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html

You compare the .40 Super load data published by Triton to the 10mm loads that Double Tap ammo is already selling, and the advantage of the more obscure, expensive .40 Super starts to look pretty slim... especially when you consider the .40 Super is "cheating" by quoting ballistics from longer barrels.

http://www.tritonammo.com/products/40SuperLoadData.shtml

Here is the head-to-head comparison, DoubleTap 10mm performance (all within SAAMI pressure limits, incidentally) and Triton's .40 Super factory performance...

135gr: 1,800 vs. 1,600
165gr: 1,500 vs. 1,425
200gr: 1,300 vs. 1,270

There is no doubt hot .40 Super loads can exceed the ballistics of truly hot 10mm loads, if only because the Super case has more internal volume. But the question is, is that difference actually enough to justify the pain in the neck involved? Since the expense and overall hassle is the same between .40 Super and .460 Rowland, why not just go straight to .460 Rowland and get more power with bigger bullets in the bargain?
 
Doubletap did throw a stick in the spokes didnt they! Good point.
You MUST admit they are the exception not the Rule..........I stated MOST 10mm Ammo.............

Id say honestly on both accounts they have taken the energy levels to a new high........and a new level of gun.
Shoot well..........
 
You MUST admit they are the exception not the Rule
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Sure, they are only one source of many for 10mm ammo. And .40 Super only has one source, period. But we are interested in comparing peak performance between the two calibers, not stacking the deck to make .40 Super look better than it really is.

Another thing to consider is what the gun is going to be used for. 900 ft-lb loads for self-defense against humans are probably not a practical proposition when 370 ft-lb .45 ACP loads are all most people can cope with.

Consider the following rough recoil comparison, assuming a 40 oz gun:

230gr .45 ACP, 5.4gr of powder @ 860 ft/sec: 5.3 ft/lbs recoil @ 11.7 ft/sec
165gr .40 Super, 16.4gr of powder @ 1,500 ft/sec: 10.7 ft/lbs recoil @ 16.6 ft/sec

Double the recoil of G.I. .45 hardball at 50% greater speed... :eek:

The really hot ballistics would probably only come into play for hunting, and for that role you'd want to use the heaviest bullets (200gr+). Note that at that point, the gap between .40 Super and hot 10mm is smallest.
 
One other small but somewhat relevant point....from what Ive read in FBI studies and HEARD ON THE NET! :D

The so called "breaking point" of energy thats good against human beings is around 600 FPE....anything beyond that is theoretically, wasted energy just creating more recoil and time between shots......

Its an interesting stat. to say the least.........

Shoot well.
 
.40 Super is a drop in for guns chambered in .45ACP. That would be it's main advantage over the 10mm. You don't need a new pistol, just swap the barrel and recoil spring.
 
.45 Win Mag brass could be trimmed and necked-down to .40 Super, but I don't believe you'd have a small primer pocket, like the .40 Super.

Sean's right. Except for the convenience of just having to make a barrel and spring swap, the 10mm's the way to go. With Glocks, .40 Super won't feed reliably from pre-ban G21 mags. 10 rd. G21 mags are necessary for reliable feeding.

At any rate, the .40 Super never even got off the ground. Looks like 10mm's here to stay.
 
Since the expense and overall hassle is the same between .40 Super and .460 Rowland, why not just go straight to .460 Rowland and get more power with bigger bullets in the bargain?
Click to expand...

I might have this wrong, but I think it takes more than just the barrel and springs to go to .460 Rowland, whereas that's all you need to go to .40 Super. I wouldn't mind having a dedicated .460 1911, though.

I agree that 10mm is a much more practical solution, as long as you're willing to own more than one gun. :)

Anything over 10mm, I think it makes sense to start looking at revolvers. If you're looking to bash yourself with recoil, why toy around with the differences between 10mm, .45 super, .40 super, etc. when you can far surpass those ballistics with common revolver ammunition?
 
If you're talking another gun and a lot of power but want to stay in an auto-loader you might as well start looking at a Desert Eagle. For home defense I think a .357 Desert Eagle isn't a bad gun except for 1 thing, the concussion. Man that sucker is LOUD. Easily on par with a .44 Mag revolver. But follow-up shots are as smooth, quick, and accurate as you could want. I've seen Kamicosmos shoot it quite effectively against bowling pins.

Obviously though the DE is a bit large and heavy for carry use.

For me, the biggest round I've found that I can shoot quickly and comfortably in a gun small enough to be carried is the 10mm. Even then I prefer the light 135 gr bullets for their reduced recoil and a heavy gun.

Given all that the greater capacity afforded by the smaller diameter case makes it a very attractive option for a carry caliber. I have 9 round CMC Shooting Star mags that are flush fit giving me a round or two advantage over flush fit .45 magazines.
 
What carpetbaggerr said. Also the 400 CORBON is no longer a wildcat. The 40 super used higher pressures, but the 400 CORBON operates at 45 ACP pressures, mabey +P, but nothing any 45 gun couldn't handle. If you're getting a new gun, just get a 10mm. More cheaper ammo. If you already have a 45, you can get a simple conversion barrel to 400 CORBON, your mags and extractor/ejector etc.. are fine, mabey a slightly heavier recoil spring. The .40 super is dead. The 400 CORBON is clinging to life. The 10mm is kicking butt and taking names. Love my Glock 20.
 
I did the initial load development work for Triton on the 40 Super project back in 1998. The first gun was a Schuetzen Pistol Works 1911 fitted with a 5" 40 Super barrel. The original brass from Starline came straight walled like a .451 Detonics Mag case and had to be necked down using the 40 Super die. They had large primer pockets and were head stamped "45 Colt". The second batch of brass was again straight walled with a large primer pocket, but these were headstamped 45 Win Mag. The Win Mag marked cases did not last nearly as long as the first 45 Colt units. It wasn't until the third run of brass that it came necked down with the small primer pocket and Triton's head stamp.

I still have a 6" Schuetzen Pistol Works gun in 40 Super, S/N 40SUPER-01 and used it to drop a wild hog back in August of 1998. I was using a 200gr Hornady XTP running 1400fps.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp
 
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