caliber based question

[Bezoar]

when handguns come up for deer, if you talk about 44 special or 45 colt its basically the same "rule of thumb"

at least 200 grains of lead at a minimum 800 fps, or as close to 1000 fps you can reach safely for your gun and stay accurate.

there is no value for minimum energy, its well known a 45 or 44 with a 200 grain slug at 8-1000 fps can launch and go through a deer length wise at 50 yards. ive talked to people who say theyve done it.

But when you talk about cartridges developed after 1910, you get wierd things. minimum velocity, minimum weight, minimum muzzle energy, minimulm diameter.

but if 200 grains at 800 fps in a 45 colt is enough, then why isnt the same revolver with a conversion cylinder utilizing a 45acp case tossing the same 200 grain bullet at 800 fps 'sufficient" based upon minimum muzzle energy standards?

im just curious is all, remembered the sw stealth hunter that was once in 45 colt and 45acp.

 

[jmr40]

Bullets kill game by making large holes and penetrating deep enough to damage vitals. Heavy, large caliber bullets penetrate deep and make larger holes at slow speed because they don't need to expand.

Modern, smaller caliber bullets need speed and energy to expand and get the needed penetration.

Both work, they just do it in very different ways.

 

[d2wing]

In my state .45 Colt or ACP is not enough. There are minimum calibers going by energy, case size and caliber. .357 is generally considered the minimum followed by the .44 mag. Rules do vary by state. JM is pretty much right, but expansion and maintaining mass is part of effectiveness. In high speed rifle bullets flesh responds differently at higher speeds. It is called cavitation
. There is very little of that under 1800 fps or so. Like JM said caliber and mass mean more at low speeds such as pistols, lack powder and slugs. But speed makes a difference too.

 

[tahunua001]

everyone has their own standards about what is strong enough and what isn't. in states like indiana with absolutely obsurd cartridge restrictions, I believe 45 colt is legal and 45ACP is not, despite reasonably similar ballistics from carbines. I'm killed deer with 147gr +p 9mm from a carbine. it wasn't the best for the job, but it worked.

 

[RKRCPA]

When I think 44spl or 45 Colt I think of a 250gr. bullet at a minimum of 850fps with 1000fps much more desirable.

 

[35 Whelen]

when handguns come up for deer, if you talk about 44 special or 45 colt its basically the same "rule of thumb"

at least 200 grains of lead at a minimum 800 fps, or as close to 1000 fps you can reach safely for your gun and stay accurate.

there is no value for minimum energy, its well known a 45 or 44 with a 200 grain slug at 8-1000 fps can launch and go through a deer length wise at 50 yards. ive talked to people who say theyve done it.

But when you talk about cartridges developed after 1910, you get wierd things. minimum velocity, minimum weight, minimum muzzle energy, minimulm diameter.

but if 200 grains at 800 fps in a 45 colt is enough, then why isnt the same revolver with a conversion cylinder utilizing a 45acp case tossing the same 200 grain bullet at 800 fps 'sufficient" based upon minimum muzzle energy standards?

im just curious is all, remembered the sw stealth hunter that was once in 45 colt and 45acp.

One thing a person needs to remember is a 200 gr. .35 caliber bullet and a 200 gr. .45 caliber are two totally different animals due to their differing sectional densities, which is the ratio of a projectile weight, to its diameter. In the field, all things equal such as bullet construction, velocity, etc., bullets with a relatively higher sectional density will penetrate better/deeper than those of lower sectional density, generally speaking. As bullet diameters and weights increase however the sheer mass of a projectile will begin to overcome a lack of sectional density.

Last year was my first year to hunt deer with a handgun and handgun cartridges. I took three during the course of the season. I used a Uberti 4 3/4" SA .44 Special. The load for two of the deer was a home cast 260 gr. SWC @ 935 fps. One doe @ 16 yds., slight angle, complete penetration through the lungs. Another was a buck @ 45 yds. broadside, again complete penetration only this was a similar bullet, but was a home cast 252 gr. SWCHP. The last was a buck but I shot him with a .44 Special carbine. He was a hair over 100 yds., same bullet/load as the doe only running 200 fps faster out of the carbine. Impact velocity was ~1050 fps. The bullet entered high in the left flank and stopped under the skin at the juncture of the neck and shoulder on the right side of the buck. I didn't see any broken bones but it appears the bullet maybe glanced off a bone somewhere along the way.







So, I personally don't know a minimum bullet weight and velocity for .44 and .45 caliber handgun cartridges, but for the sake of penetration, I feel a heavier bullet is always better.

35W

 

[Art Eatman]

I have less concern about "the numbers" than I do with the hunter's ability to reliably hit the end of a beer can, as a limitation on range.

 

[Bezoar]

ive been reading bear tooth bullets bullet data section.

its easy to see their really isnt that much of a difference, but its awfully irritating when energy doesnt exist for the old black powder cartridge, and only for the smokeless ones.

 

[Bezoar]

i remembered my unhappiness with barnes vortex 44 magnum handgun ammo in a carbine, the 220 grain solid copper thing. super accurate but super super slow in a carbine. let alone in a handgun.

the box states like 780 fps from their test barrel, i think a 6 incher. they show a photo of one of the honchos using it for really big bear, and well it showed expansion, but

ive seen test data of people getting the same and even higher velocity from a 220 grain jsp/swc in a 44 special bull dog.