Calibers

[chaim]

I know I've done this before, but I think I will be investing in a bolt rifle within a few months (hopefully by the end of the year).

I do not hunt. Mostly I'll be punching paper at 100-200 yards so practically speaking a .223 would be more than enough. However, I like the theoretical knowlege that I could use it at longer ranges (if I ever get to where I can accurately shoot 500-600 yards, and find a range where I can regularly do it, I'd love to have a rifle I won't have "outgrown") and I also like the theoretical knowlege that I could lend it to a hunting friend for deer sized game (you know, for the "what if SHTF" kinda stuff). I had a 30-06 and while I can handle it, it wasn't really fun for extended range time and I also want something that I can get some serious range time each time I go to the rifle range (it wasn't much better than 12ga). I would love something comparable to 30-30 or slightly more.

So I need something more powerful than .223 (most likely) and with lower recoil than 30-06 I suppose.

My thoughts (in order of likelihood):

-.243: Seems like a good caliber for what I want. Mild recoil, target ranges probably to about 500 yards and suitable for deer probably to 2-300 yards.

-6.55 Swedish Mauser: I really think this would be the perfect caliber, except I only reload revolver calibers and it isn't as easy to find as the standard American calibers. But, it is mild recoil, accurate, good to at least 600 yards, and good for deer to at least 300 yards.

-7x57: Easier to find than 6.55 Swedish, but not quite as available as the more standard American calibers. It is accurate, mild in recoil, good to 5-600 yards and good for deer to 300 or so yards.

-Some other 7mm (probably 7mm-08): Not hard to find, most are mild in recoil, most are good to 500-600 yards and most are good for deer. How accurate are some of these?

-.308: A good standard target caliber, cheap surplus ammo is still available, one of the standards everything else is compared to. However, I understand recoil is basically the same as 30-06 so for what I want it probably would only work in a semi-auto, not really for a bolt rifle.

-.223: Given that I don't actually hunt the theoretical ability to take deer probably isn't that important. It is used in Highpower matches so I guess some loadings will work to 500 yards (by the time I get to those ranges I'll probably start reloading rifle calibers anyway). Recoil is barely noticable (actually, that is a negative since I do want to feel something). It is cheap and available pretty much everywhere. However, it really isn't quite what I think I want right now.

-It is also possible I'll forget most of my criteria for now, forget recoil, and go with the fact that the rifles are really cheap, that cheap surplus ammo is very available, and go with the budget (and thus buy sooner) and go with a Mosin-Nagant or SMLE and shoot 7.62x54R or .303 (which shouldn't be bad on recoil actually).

So, I am open to suggestions and to your imput. Also, I am open to arguments that I should consider something not on my list. I don't see going .270 as it won't be any lighter in recoil (not noticable anyway) than 30-06 so there is no major advantage for my needs over the standard 30-06 but I may be open to convincing on some of the other common calibers I'm neglecting because I simply don't know them as well (.280, .260, etc.).

 

[dfaugh]

Well as far as recoil goes...If you didn't like 30-06, you really won't like the recoil of 7.62x54R or .303 British...I have 2 Mosins and 1 SMLE and they thump me pretty good, at least off a bench.

Of the choices given the 6.5 or 7mm Mauser would be my choices, and you can get them in relatively inexpensive military surplus guns, if you like.

 

[AirForceShooter]

I'm an old guy.
for me it's .30 cal anything.


AFS

 

[chaim]

Well as far as recoil goes...If you didn't like 30-06, you really won't like the recoil of 7.62x54R or .303 British...I have 2 Mosins and 1 SMLE and they thump me pretty good, at least off a bench.

Of the choices given the 6.5 or 7mm Mauser would be my choices, and you can get them in relatively inexpensive military surplus guns, if you like.

I know 7.62x54 is pretty stout (I've had a few opportunities to shoot the MN carbines). I'd definately go with a full-sized rifle on that one. I didn't realize that .303 was also pretty stout.

Anyway, if I go 6.5 or 7mm Mauser (or any of the other calibers) I'd likely go with a CZ, Howa, or Winchester M70. The cheap surplus gun is more just if I go with the Nagant or SMLE. However, there is a chance I'd choose either the Swedish Mauser if I could find a nice one in my price range or the Yugo (though I think that is in 8mm Mauser if memory serves).

If I go surplus I'd be buying with a different purpose in mind (i.e. just a fun gun for "blasting", not developing some better marksmanship skills and better technique, though I'd work on that a bit but on a more casual basis). I'm leaning towards the more modern scoped commercial gun and working on my skills over the mainly for fun gun.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Go .223. You said yourself, by the time you get to shoot at 500 and 600 yards, you're likely to be reloading. The .223 can do 600 on targets, no problem, and I speak from experience with this round on the Highpower range. An 80gr .223 at 2650fps or so (20" AR-15) is fine, once you learn to read wind. I fired a 94-5X at the President's 100 at Camp Perry last year. Not a record breaker, but pretty good considering round number one went into the 7-ring. The X-ring is one minute, so I can say the round is capable of shooting MOA out to 600.

The trick is barrel twist. If you have a 1:9 on your bolt rifle, the 75gr VLDs might work and the 75gr A-MAXs should work as well. These are long, sleek bullets which require a modicum of advanced loading knowledge, but it is not an insurmountable task.

If you want to avoid all of the above, get a 6.5 or 7mm. Then you won't have to worry about the loading parameters AS much. Personally, I'd get a .260 Remington over a 7mm-08 for long-range work. A wee-bit less kick, with adequate launch speeds on bullets with good BCs. (Check out the BCs on 142gr Sierra Matchkings. It's enough to make any .30 or .223 shooter jealous! )

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

-6.55 Swedish Mauser: I really think this would be the perfect caliber, except I only reload revolver calibers and it isn't as easy to find as the standard American calibers. But, it is mild recoil, accurate, good to at least 600 yards, and good for deer to at least 300 yards.

If you reload revolver calibera, all you need to reload 6.5X55 or 7X57 or any other rifle cartridge is a set of dies and the components.

 

[GunGoBoom]

6.5x55 swede. You said you may want to go long range. There's a reason many 1000-yard shooters choose 6.5mm cartridges.

 

[dakotasin]

random thoughts:
target guns are generally very heavy. this negates some recoil, while simultaneously negating any desire to take them hunting.

'target rifle' and 'cheap surplus ammo' do not belong in the same sentence, house, and maybe even, property as each other.

the 308 family is a good, accurate family of cartridges. i have never had any troubles getting anything from that family to shoot (308, 243, 7-08). also look to 260 and 25 souper.

sure looks to me like a mid-weight 7-08 is right up your alley... look to remington's 700 lvsf, something along those lines (for a hybrid target/sporter). if you are serious about a target gun, look to heavy rifles that will come in around 9 pounds (or more) for a nekkid rifle. if serious about hunting rifles, look to one that will weigh no more than 7.5 pounds naked (and lighter is better - to a point... 6 pounds naked is getting to specialty stuff, and you may not be ready for that just yet).

 

[chaim]

if you are serious about a target gun,

Right now my skills (its an insult to skills to call what I can do with a rifle "skills" ) aren't up to a real target rifle. I'm looking for something capable that I can shoot at the 100 and 200 yard range, have some fun with, and most importantly build my skills and technique. Then, since I will be entering grad school next year (assuming I get in) I don't know what my finances will be like in a few years as I improve, I want something that can be put to use at longer ranges (500-600 yards I guess) in a pinch until I can afford something more suitable for longer ranges. Heck, I don't really know if my skills will ever get beyond the 200 yard rifle range.

 

[chaim]

If you reload revolver calibera, all you need to reload 6.5X55 or 7X57 or any other rifle cartridge is a set of dies and the components.

I was under the impression though that the bottle necked cartridge case requires a higher skill level. Anyway, regardless of whether my skills are ready, my press is a Lee hand press. Works for handguns, but I'm not sure how well it would work for rifles. At the moment I don't really have the room to upgrade my equipment. I figure it will be a couple years before I get the equipment and try my hand at reloading for rifles.

 

[dakotasin]

skills... well, we all gotta start somewhere. for your purposes, the least expensive way in is a sporter-barrelled gun by the maker of your choice. candidates from remington (rem 700 sps, bdl, cdl), winchester (m70 black shadow), and even ruger (whatever they are being called these days) will fill in nicely. if it were me, i'd scour the gun shops looking for a remington 700 adl (discontinued in january, but still some around - so usually available very cheap) in whatever caliber (243 is most common around here - though i would try my best to come up w/ a 308).

loading... in my opinion, bottleneck cartridges are far easier to load and more forgiving than any handgun cartridge. caveat: i know nothing about the lee hand press - i use a rockchucker.

finances... my brother went thru a lot of stress when he went down to be a cornhusker grad student (math)... it actually turned out very well for him. the stipend gave him enough money to support him, his wife (also a student), their 3 kids, 2 cats, 1 dog, and 1 house payment. fortunately for him, he was debt free except for the student loans and house. hope you can get into a good program, too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I was under the impression though that the bottle necked cartridge case requires a higher skill level. Anyway, regardless of whether my skills are ready, my press is a Lee hand press. Works for handguns, but I'm not sure how well it would work for rifles. At the moment I don't really have the room to upgrade my equipment. I figure it will be a couple years before I get the equipment and try my hand at reloading for rifles.

The basic difference between straight-case revolver cartridges and rifle cartridges is:

1. You can reload straight cases with carbide dies, no lube required. You must lube bottle neck cases -- I use a patch moistened with Ed's Red.

2. You must lube the case mouth of bottle necks -- because the expander ball is pulled back through the neck, and if it picks up a tiny film as it goes in, it will come out easier.

3. You must flare straight cases with a separate die (especially with lead bullets.) Bottle necks don't need much if any flaring and you'll find loading boat tails to be rediculously easy.

4. You rarely need to crimp rifle cartridges (those shot in rifles with tubular magazines are an exception.)

The Lee Hand Press is fine -- I've loaded literally thousands of .30-06, .22 Hornet, 7mm Rem Mag and .30-30 on a Lee Hand Press. When I'm working up a new load, I take mine to the range with me and load right at the bench.

 

[possum]

I would agree with what was said above about the .223. For punching paper you can't go wrong and ammo is pretty affordable. More and more .223 caliber rifles are being seen on the high power rifle shoots, loaded with some heavier rds the distances that you said you wanted to shoot would be no problem. Though you will not be able to use that caliber to hunt with well at least where i am from.
I would also like to suggest that you get a .308 which is low priced ammo many many match loads and great factory loads from almost everyone under the sun, it is a well established and widley used caliber in competitions at extended ranges. But since the recoil is an issue for you do like I did and get the barrel magnaported. I didn't do this because of sensativity to recoil but just because it makes follow up shots much quicker. I had my .270 winchester model 70 magnaported and it is awesome. That will cost a little bit but hey you wll get what you want.

 

[chaim]

Doing a little more research I want to add the 25-06 to my list of calibers to consider. How does it compare to the others in recoil, range, accuracy, power? It is based on the 30-06 but with the smaller, lighter .25cal bullet I imagine recoil would be a lot lighter. Then again, it is a .25cal but would require a long action (I'd prefer a short action receiver).

So, my top choices right now (I think) are:

-Still .243. It meets many of my criteria, and since I'm now looking for bargain guns on sale, it is one of the "standard" calibers I'm more likely to find.

-6.5x55: In an ideal world this is probably the caliber, but I'm not so likely to find it in a "Walmart Special" rifle (which is all I can afford right now).

-7x57: Pretty much the same criteria as the 6.5Swede

-7mm-08: Probably the best bet for me on recoil, power, range, etc. out of what I'll probably find, but it is a little less likely that I'll find it on a "Walmart Special" type rifle than the .243, .270 or 30-06. Still out of calibers other than these three, this is probably the most likely one I'll find (well, out of calibers I'll consider- I've seen a lot of 7mm Mag in "Walmart Special" type rifles).

-.270: Because I'm looking for the budget guns and thus more limited in likely calibers, this is a caliber I'll probably find and recoil should be lighter than 30-06 with good range, accuracy, etc. Still, it is probably a little more stout than what I really want (I'd probably be done shooting after two or three boxes). How does recoil compare to 30-06? Are there bullet weights I should look for to minimize recoil/maximize shooting time or will I need to reload to keep recoil down?

-30-06: Because of the kinds of guns I'm after, this is probably what I'm most likely to find. If all I can find in the price range I want to spend is in this caliber, I won't rule it out. If I go this way what bullet weights should I use if I'm recoil shy (somewhat) but still want to do a lot of shooting? Is there a commercial weight that will probably work, or am I more likely going to need to do some reloading to limit the recoil.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Starting with your stated critieria, not hunting but:

I also like the theoretical knowlege that I could lend it to a hunting friend for deer sized game (you know, for the "what if SHTF" kinda stuff).

Doing a little more research I want to add the 25-06 to my list of calibers to consider. How does it compare to the others in recoil, range, accuracy, power? It is based on the 30-06 but with the smaller, lighter .25cal bullet I imagine recoil would be a lot lighter. Then again, it is a .25cal but would require a long action (I'd prefer a short action receiver).

The .25-06 would be fine. It's a good deer and antelope cartridge, but light for heavier game.

-Still .243. It meets many of my criteria, and since I'm now looking for bargain guns on sale, it is one of the "standard" calibers I'm more likely to find.

Another excellent choice. Light recoil, and adequate power for deer-sized game, especially with modern premium bullets. Like the .25-06 it can also double as a varmiter.

-6.5x55: In an ideal world this is probably the caliber, but I'm not so likely to find it in a "Walmart Special" rifle (which is all I can afford right now).

-7x57: Pretty much the same criteria as the 6.5Swede

You pegged these two right -- both excellent for your purpose, but hard to find at Walmart.

-7mm-08: Probably the best bet for me on recoil, power, range, etc. but it is a little less likely that I'll find it on a "Walmart Special" type rifle than the .243, .270 or 30-06. Still out of calibers other than these three, this is probably the most likely one I'll find (well, out of calibers I'll consider- I've seen a lot of 7mm Mag in "Walmart Special" type rifles).

This is a fine cartridge -- you might get Walmart to order one for you. Like the .6.5 Swede and the 7X57, it has a steep rifling pitch, and will shoot long, heavy bullets accurately -- which enhances it's ability to take larger game.

-.270: Because I'm looking for the budget guns and thus more limited in likely calibers, this is a caliber I'll probably find and recoil should be lighter than 30-06 with good range, accuracy, etc. Still, it is probably a little more stout than what I really want (I'd probably be done shooting after two or three boxes).

The .270 isn't all that bad -- about in between the .25-06 and the .30-06. It's light recoil is one of the keys to its popularity.

-30-06: Because of the kinds of guns I'm after, this is probably what I'm most likely to find. If all I can find in the price range I want to spend is in this caliber, I won't rule it out. If I go this way what bullet weights should I use if I'm recoil shy (somewhat) but still want to do a lot of shooting? Is there a commercial weight that will probably work, or am I more likely going to need to do some reloading to limit the recoil.

There are a couple of ammo companies producing "managed recoil" ammunition in .30-06. Remington, I believe, offers a 125-grain bullet which is designed as a deer bullet, not as a varmit bullet. This offers a flat-trajectory load with mild recoil.

 

[Sunray]

"...I didn't realize that .303 was also pretty stout..." It's the rifle more than the cartridge. Lee-Enfield butt stocks are narrow and focus the felt recoil on a smaller area of your shoulder. The rifles aren't that heavy either.
You should base your decision on the availablity of inexpensive ammo, until you start reloading. The .243, 7mm-08, .260 and .270 are all hunting rounds that have never been available as surplus. Factory ammo isn't cheap and you'll have to try a box of as many brands as you can to find the one or two that your rifle will shoot well.
The .30-06, 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57 were military cartridges, but haven't been used as such for eons. Surplus may not be easy to find nor inexpensive if you do find any. Although the CMP carries .30-06 at $192.00 per 960 plus shipping. Even .308/7.62 ball is getting scarce in case lots, although it's around. Neither the .30-06 nor .308 will pound you out of the right rifle.
A surf to the CMP's site may be in order. $400 or $500 will buy you an M-1 Garand. You'd be spending that or more on a decent scoped bolt action. The felt recoil is negligible in a Garand. Jump the hoops and shoot the matches even if you don't have to do so.
http://www.odcmp.com

 

[rbernie]

"...I didn't realize that .303 was also pretty stout..." It's the rifle more than the cartridge. Lee-Enfield butt stocks are narrow and focus the felt recoil on a smaller area of your shoulder. The rifles aren't that heavy either.

I was thinking the same thing - I've got a handful of sporterized Enfields and they really don't have the sharpness in recoil of my 308s or 30-06.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I was thinking the same thing - I've got a handful of sporterized Enfields and they really don't have the sharpness in recoil of my 308s or 30-06.

Nor should they -- a 150 grain bullet at around 2700 fps (which is about max for the .303) will not produce the recoil of a 150 grain bullet at 3,000 fps (which is doable with a .30-06), assuming equal weights and stock designs for the guns firing them.

 

[GunGoBoom]

on the topic of caliber choices

this is probably not important enough to start a thread unto itself for, so I thought I'd throw it in as a tangent here, since the original question is pretty well answered.

What calibers do y'all presently have represented in your collections (by 1 or more rifles), which of those calibers to you plan to subtract someday, or at least would not get a rifle in again, knowing what you know now, and which other calibers do you plan to add someday? For me,

Presently have (counting 'shooter milsurps' but not counting 'collector' milsurps):

--.22 LR (several)
--.22 WMR x1
--.17 HMR x1
--.223 Rem (5.55x45mm) x 2
--.243 Win x 2
--7.62x39mm Russian x 1
--.25-'06 Rem x 1
--6.5x55mm swede x1
--.308 Win x 1
--7.5x55mm swiss x 1
--.303 Brit x 1
--7mm remmag x 1
--.45-70 Gov't x 2

Plan to subtract or wish hadn't gotten:
--.25-06 x 1 (good cal if you only had one gun, BUT if not, then it's too similar to .243 and/or 6.5x55 swede, AND just why complicate things for a rifle with short-ish barrel life?) - see sale ad here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=161961

--7mm remmag: got this rifle in trade (Rem 700), and don't have any use for it at ALL. BUT I'm kinda planning on keeping it just in case I get the funds (and a tag) for a rifle elk hunt, then this seems like a good choice. I'll sell it if the offer is right however.
--I could live without the .17 HMR but don't plan to part with it as it's a hoot (it's a turtle annihilator specialist, with backup crow & p-dog duties, in theory, in addition to being a fun range gun.)

Plan to add:
--.357 mag carbine (Marlin 1894 lever)
--.35 Whelen (rem 7600 pump hopefully), OR 9.3x62mm (CZ 550 turnbolt)
--.454 Casull / .45 colt (Puma M92 lever)
--.458 Lott / .458 winmag (CZ 550 Amer. Safari Magnum)
--*another* 6.5x55 swede (CZ550, Tikka T3, or Howa 1500)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Hmmm ... I have a 7mm Rem Mag I never shoot. Somehow I always reach for my .30-06, or 6.5, or .35 Brown-Whelen.

And I have a Canadian Ross in .303 British.

If I were on a jag buying rifles, I probably wouldn't buy another one of those.

On the other hand, .22 LRs and .30-06s just seem to climb in the back of my truck.

 

[db_tanker]

You mentioned the possibility of a SHTF situational rifle.



308


surplus ammo can be "stored" in a nice hole in the back yard.

There is enough factory ammo out there that it would be hard to imagine not finding somthing that didn't shoot well out of it. By well, I mean at least 2 moa....which for most hunting applications is more than enough...REGARDLESS of what some might think.

IF you get into reloading, then you would be set with a rifle that would, more likely than not, be able to produce accuracy far beyond what you can get with factory fodder. By adjusting the COAL and powder/bullet/brass/primer selection you could have a nice little shooter that could print smiley faces at 250+ yards. Go varmint hunting with 100 gr HP's, or go hunting for bear with a nice 180 gr Barnes TS or Winchester Failsafe.

308.

MTCW
D

 

[chaim]

What calibers do y'all presently have represented in your collections (by 1 or more rifles), which of those calibers to you plan to subtract someday, or at least would not get a rifle in again, knowing what you know now, and which other calibers do you plan to add someday? For me,

Calibers I have:

-.22lr (Currently in a Marlin 60, my first gun. I used to have others).
-.223 (AR15)
-30-30 (Winchester 94, my favorite gun)
-7.62x39 (SKS)
-.45LC (Not a rifle caliber, but I have it in a Winchester 94)


Calibers I had rifles in but no longer:
-30-06 (Savage 110)
-9mm (Hi Point Carbine)

Calibers I intend to add:
-Probably too many to list (plus several are possibilities that I'll choose between but may not have one in each). I'll definately have a 6.5x55 and/or 7x57 but maybe not both. Possibly a 7mm-08 (esp. if I don't get the 7x57). Possibly/probably a .243. Definately 30-06 (M1 Garand), .30Carbine (M1 Carbine), more .223s (probably a single shot around the same time as the bolt rifle), .308 (M1A eventually, possibly in a bolt rifle), 7.62x54R (Mosin Nagant), .303 (surplus of course). Definately a big bore lever (definately a .44mag eventually, possibly a 45-70, quite possibly a .480Ruger or .454 and the .444Marlin is starting to interest me). I'll definately pick up a lever rifle in .357mag. Quite a few others are interesting me as well.

I like all the calibers I currently own and don't plan to rid myself of the caliber (definately plan on more .223s, though no more ARs, more .22lr, and more 30-30s eventually).

 

[chaim]

You mentioned the possibility of a SHTF situational rifle.

Yeah, but.....

More just for fun theoretical ideas. The kind of "SHTF" I consider likely requires little more than a shotgun/carbine and handgun (riots, natural disasters/short term loss of order). However, for fun and "just in case" it is nice to know I have a gun that can take a Chinese/UN/Martian solider at long range if needed (you know, after the Chinese/UN/Martian invasion) or that will take down a deer if I need to start hunting for food (it would take a lot since hunted meat isn't kosher- it wouldn't be slaughtered correctly), and that would be easy to stockpile (cheap), reload and stock components, and/or find. Thus, while it would be nice (for fun and theoretical discussion) for it to work for SHTF situations, these considerations aren't my #1 priority.

Of course, in all situations the versatility you mention for the .308 is an important consideration I guess.

 

[browningguy]

You might look at a 6.5 Grendel upper for your AR. A great long range target round, and perfectly fine for deer hunting. Ammo is not as available as the other rounds you listed so you'll be better off mail ordering it. Alexander Arms website has all the ballistics info on them.

 

[middy]

Get the CZ 550 FS in 6.5x55... if only because it's the coolest rifle I've ever seen (new, in the $500-$600 price range).