Can a .45 230gr +P round expand reliably in a 3.5" barrel?

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DasFriek

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My heart says yes, But my head says no.
Granted this is all i will carry in my 5" 1911, Ive been wracking my brain about what ammo to put in my new RIA 3.5" CS Officers.

My head says i have a 50/50 chance of it expanding reliably, But even then its just ball ammo which isnt all that bad anyhow.

From all the ballistics reports ive read the 200gr +P is what i need at a minimum.
Id like to skip 185gr as i may as well carry a .40
My normal two main ammo brand choices are Winchester T-series and Federal HST and neither carry 200gr ammo in these flavors.

I like the DPX bullet but it only goes upto 185gr's also.

So that leaves me in the 200gr +P range:
Gold dots
Hornady TAP
Golden Sabers

Im leaning towards the TAP due to its feeding reliability and price.
And also just sticking with the 230gr +P T-series.

I know there are many threads like this and ive read them, But none answer direct questions i have. Plus i dont want to make myself so paranoid i feel i need a load from Buffalo Bore or DoubleTap and all the extra recoil that comes with them for an issue that i may be blowing out of proportion. And trust me ive thought about it.
 
I don't want it to expand in the barrel.:what:, But in the target!:neener: LOLz.


Nothing expands reliably. That's why .45 is still popular. You should be Ok though. Maybe stick to the lighter 185-200gn rounds? The lighter 185's should get back some speed lost by the short barrel. I've never seen a 3" vs 5" 1911 gel test.
 
Yes, 1.5" can make a 100-150fps lower difference. A full 3" barrel can be 150-200fps slower.
In an already slow round i really get picky/scared about my ammo choices as i have no way to do expansion tests myself.
Ive seen many Chrono tests between 3" and 5" barrels as i posted the FPS losses with the shorter barrel. And ive also seen tests where a 230gr bullet becomes unreliable at expansion when it drops below 850-900 fps.
Now luckily the Ranger T-series +P 230gr is rates at 990FPS in a 5" barrel so a 100fps drop in velocity puts it right on the edge.

Keep in mind all muzzle velocity tests are generally done in 5" barrels.
I know Gold Dot makes a short barrel version, But im not sure on the grains on the bullet as ive not seen it for sale.

I have no issue dropping to a 200gr +P bullet as its still large,But my findings are that the fps doesn't go up as much as you would think. Generally these loads land at 1050-1075 FPS. Unless you go with DoubleTap or Buffalo Bore they do increase 100-150fps speeds, But neither uses a well documented bullet type.
DT does have the 185gr Nosler at 1225fps in a 5"

Im no expert and i know many people here have more info on the subject than i have. But i do tons of research on subjects, Especially important ones where it could help save my life. So thats why im asking for people with more experience to chime in and give opinions.

Am i wrong in feeling a 185gr .45 is too lite?
Am i right in thinking a 200gr +P will expand more reliably due to the higher speed?
Is the Hornady Tap FDP 200gr +P the best option? or should i stay with the Ranger T-series 230gr +P?

Ive shot the Rangers 230's in the gun for hollow point feeding reliability and the +P didn't have much recoil increase since its all steel.

"Edit"- While looking at Winchesters site they post info on the 230gr and 230gr +P and the standard pressure load is rates at 885fps in a 5" barrel.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx
Now if my 3.5" barrel only looses 100fps with the +P it would be right on the mark with the standard load in a 5" barrel.

Even if i dropped too the TAP 200gr +P its 1055FPS doesn't give but a 65fps increase even tho i loose 30 grains.

So for now if anyone thinks the 200gr +P would be better speak up, But for now i think i convinced myself the Ranger T-series 230+P at 990fps will be fine in my 3.5" barrel.
 
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One of the main reasons for hollow points, is to create a parachute affect, so the bullet doesn't over penetrate. With the mass/weight of a 45acp, as well as the much slower velocities: 850-900fps; the 45acp is unlikely to do much over penetrating. If it did, there wouldn't be a lot of velocity/energy left to do much residual damage.

Anyway, this is why many people use lead Semi-wadcutters and even Lead Round Nose bullets for self defense in a 45acp. Many of the proponents of hollow points speak of expanding the bullet to a LARGER diameter, to cause more damage. Well, most 9mm and similar calibers (.357) is going to expand out to maybe the size of a 45acp at it's maximum expansion. And that's assuming the expanded 9mm doesn't break apart.

In order to get a hollow point to expect reliably; besides the material it is made of, you have to have a high enough velocity. You're also assuming that nothing clogs the hollow point and turns it into a flat nose. Ballistics is basically a giant circle jerk.

1. Need bullet to travel faster so it will penetrate more.
2. If bullet travels too fast, it might exist and harm a bystander.
3. Make the bullet a hollow point so it won't over penetrate.
4. Crap, now the Hollow Point won't penetrate enough because of parachute affect.
5. Well, make the bullet even FASTER to ensure that the hollow point expands.
6. The purpose of the bullet is to penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs or the CNS.
7. A larger diameter/mass bullet (E.g.230 grain 45acp) is heavy enough to penetrate deeply; slow enough to not over penetrate; large enough diameter to be effective.
8. If a person mentions "Hydrostatic Shock" and "Defensive Handgun calibers" in the same topic, they don't know what they're talking about.

Bottom line: FMJ do suck for Self Defense except in small diameter/weight/mass calibers. (E.g. 32acp-380). FMJ or LRN/LFN will penetrate better than a hollow point, and doesn't need to expand, because it's not going to over penetrate with any significant energy retention. If you can, carry a 45acp LRN/SWC for self defense. At 850-900 fps, it won't over penetrate. It will deform and give some expansion to make a larger diameter bullet. Anything gained in velocity/expansion with a 165-180 grain 45acp, you lose in penetration/mass. In other words, it's a wash between a slower 230 grain 45acp LRN/SWC and a 165-180 grain 45acp HP. The calibers between the 32acp/380 and the 45acp use Hollow Points to increase the diameter of the bullet, to cause more damage, and to slow it down so it doesn't over penetrate. These calibers should be chosen because your confidence level wants "More Rounds" in the magazine or for a smaller gun for concealment. And also, in some cases, for less recoil. But head to head, you're actually better with the LRN/SWC 230 grain 900fps 45acp, than a 115-147 grain 1200+/-fps 9mm with a hollow point. The 9mm/357/40sw with fmj and similar, will probably over penetrate.
 
Oh my goodness. Are you guys serious? Are you talking about stopping a normal person or some new hybrid humonoid type robot?

Put some bullets in the gun and shoot it. I'm willing to bet that any 7 bullets that leave the end of your short barreled 45 will stop any person.
 
Even through a short 3.5 inch barrel, it will knock the living crap out of you.
You are probably very well protected.
 
Just for fun I was testing some .45 hand loads out of different barrels. Granted these were soft loadings (ie: lower than standard pressure/velocity), nowhere near +P

Here are the results. Amazing what some barrel length will do for (velocity and) expansion.

Left to right, 3.8", 4.4" and 5"

Clipboard09.jpg


Clipboard10.jpg


... and the jackets

Clipboard03.jpg


Clipboard05.jpg


Clipboard07.jpg
 
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I have tested a number of different loads in my G30 (3.78" barrel) shooting into wet newsprint with two layers of cotton t-shirt and two layers of jeans denim in front. Here are nine of the ten rounds fired for the Ranger +P:
PA161112.jpg

Here are all ten rounds fired of the 185 gr Hornady Critical Defense:
P7150567.jpg

On the right side of that picture is one round of standard 230 gr Gold Dot. In other testing under the same conditions, every round looks just like that. The short barrel 230 gr Gold Dot is also reliable, but does not open as wide. I prefer the standard 230 gr Gold Dot.
 
If you're willing to bare the cost, CorBon and Black Hills Ammunition both load the Barnes X-bullet. Either manufacturer's load is a good choice.

The Barnes 185gr bullet isn't too light to penetrate deeply enough. The wide gaps between expanded petals, combined with +P velocity, are the factors that allow the bullet to achieve adequate penetration.

Cheers!
 
wyocarp wrote:
Oh my goodness. Are you guys serious? Are you talking about stopping a normal person or some new hybrid humonoid type robot?

Put some bullets in the gun and shoot it. I'm willing to bet that any 7 bullets that leave the end of your short barreled 45 will stop any person.
Click to expand...

It was a valid question regarding bullet performance from a specific barrel length. Sorry it didn't meet your criteria for worthwhile discussion.
 
All good info guy, And wyocarp you have a point also.
I like to over analyze things as many people here do, And i think my decision here will have a 1 out of a Billion chance it will ever affect my life.

Im not so sure i want to use SWC's or lead nose just for the fact i don't reload and most aren't commercially available. And i dont really trust other peoples reloads either.
Ill take my chance with a 200gr or 230gr as 185gr in a .45 makes no sense to me to loose so much energy.

Fulliautomatix- Your info shows exactly what i was expecting, And thats why i feel a +P load is needed if im gonna stay above 185gr bullets.

lambertiana- So i would lean towards the Gold dot as you said you would, But i think id have to get the +P just for my own conscience. And ill tell you, 230gr GD's are expensive as heck. $29 for a box of 20 at my LGS which always has low prices on everything.

The Rangers dont look bad and id even take the mishapen 230gr ones over the fully expanded 185gr CD ammo.
Looks like ill be looking for some GD's in +P 230gr.
If someone has a negative comment on that purchase please LMK as i wont be doing it right away.
 
wyocarp said:
Oh my goodness. Are you guys serious? Are you talking about stopping a normal person or some new hybrid humonoid type robot?

Put some bullets in the gun and shoot it. I'm willing to bet that any 7 bullets that leave the end of your short barreled 45 will stop any person.
Click to expand...


Good philosophy. You should be a police chief. :rolleyes:
 
Handguns don't generally generate enough velocity to expand reliably, especially when you add variables like plugging hollow point cavities with clothing. The good thing about the 45 ACP is that without expansion it is still big and bigger is better.
 
In an already slow round i really get picky/scared about my ammo choices as i have no way to do expansion tests myself.
Click to expand...

go to a near supermarket and ask for a "Fresh Pork Leg Ham"
pig-ham-tenderloin-pot-pork-crock-ribs.jpg


hang it to something or rest it on the ground and fire away...

that give you an idea of what is going to happen, you can try it with a Pork Shpulder Picnic
Pork+Picnic+Shoulder.jpg

if you want you can add some clothes....

this is not going to give you 100% data... but you can see what kind of damage it can give... the picnic is good if you want to hit the bones... same goes to complete beef shanks
 
Don't buy 20rd boxes at your LSG, do some shopping on line.

50rds of 230gr Gold Dot for $32, less if you buy a couple boxes.
Click to expand...

Agreed!

I always wonder why people buy 20rd boxes of Gold Dots.

JOe
 
I will be looking for 50 round box's as much as availability allows so i can test for feeding reliability. I buy from SGAmmo also as thats where i get my Ranger T-series.

Thanks for the jokes about the bullets expanding inside my barrel, Ill ask for English language classes for Christmas this year instead of beer again.
 
Consistency of ballistic performance depends on more than just sheer velocity.

It is affected by the design of the bullet, as well. What's the lower end of the 'velocity window' the manufacturer has designed into a particular bullet/load where the bullet can be expected to expand under similar conditions observed in factory/design testing?

Also, quality control can have an influence. Are the cutters making the jacket notches and cuts maintained as far as consistent sharpness? What's the allowable deviation when it comes to the expected velocity in the first place? 40FPS +/- the stated average velocity? More? Less?

The answers are up for grabs, although the manufacturers do seem to have accepted the trend that LE/Gov has come to favor shorter barreled pistols for plainclothes/UC/ off-duty, and some of them have been making subtle changes to allow their premium defensive designs to better perform in the shorter barreled guns. How short of a barrel? What's the lower end of the velocity window where expansion can be expected with some consistency?

You'd have to ask a LE/Gov ammunition sales rep or a factory tech or engineer.

Factory testing, and occasional informal mobile gel testing (advertising) events can sometimes offer a little insight into these things, though. The mobile gel testing doesn't allow the strict controls over ambient temperature and temp regulation during testing, and it usually only allows 1 or 2 shots for each load in each testing scenario, and from the personally-owned guns of folks attending then events (if there's enough time and gel blocks left over that haven't been totally gutted).

Here's a couple of gel shots in a 4-layer denim test where a couple of the previous gen SXT/T-Series .45 rounds were chosen at random and fired from a 3.25" gun. The load on the left was the standard pressure load and the +P is on the right. The standard pressure load did 802fps/13"pen/.77" exp. The +P load did 839fps/12"/.76".

Obviously, this is NOT intended to be in any way representative of what might have been observed if 10-50 rounds of each load were fired for a better data sample ... but it's probably a bit better than nothing. You can't really predict what any given bullet is going to do when fired out of any particular gun under any particular conditions.

CS45sideview.jpg
CS45T-seriestopview.jpg

When the same loads were pulled and fired from a 4.25" Colt Commander we saw the standard pressure round do 846fps/14".79" and the +P round do 901fps/11.5"/.77" Go figure. The expansion was bit uneven on one of the rounds.

Commander.jpg
4.jpg

I haven't had the chance to see some testing with the latest generation of T-Series loads. I wouldn't lose any sleep carrying them in my 3.25" & 3.5" .45's, though.

Then again, the Speer SB loads are probably easier to find because they're actually marketed commercially instead of being restricted by the manufacturer to LE/Gov customers as Winchester does with their T-Series.

Time will tell how their new PDX1 loads will do, too. I'm not personally interested in bonded loads, but I've seen some rather good results with the 130gr .38 SPl +P load in a mobile gel event when fired from a short barreled J-frame into the cloth & auto glass scenarios.

Just my thoughts. I don't have the definitive answers.
 
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Well i do find that info very informative.
Im surprised at how the standard pressure penetrated 13" and expanded fully at 800fps. And then seeing the standard at 846fps expand unevenly. But it did expand full enough to be effective imo.
Ive looked at many rounds and come close to buying something different besides the T-series 230gr +P @990fps but couldn't commit.
I cant find a 50 round box of anything that is 200gr +p and even then its only 1050fps.

So im gonna stay with the Ranger T 230gr +p even in the 3.5" and 5"
 
Fastbolt - were those T-series fired into bare or clothed gelatin? I didn't get as good results from my G30, but I was firing through cloth.

I have tried the 230gr PDX1. On the left in the second picture in my previous post (with the Critical Defense) is one round recovered from the PDX1 tested the same day. All other rounds went through everything (12+" of wet newspaper and about 12" of stacked cardboard), so I assume they did not expand.
 
Fastbolt - were those T-series fired into bare or clothed gelatin? I didn't get as good results from my G30, but I was firing through cloth.
Click to expand...

4 layers of new denim.

Bullets fired into Bare Gel generally expand better, or more consistently, than when fired into Heavy Cloth or 4-layers of denim, but the 4-layer denim test is generally accepted to be the more reliable indicator of whether a bullet design will be able to resist plugging and robustly expand under conditions found in the real world. Science has been able to devise testing methods more applicable to real world results than having to resort to the wet phone books or newspaper. ;)

Proper formulation and temperature control of the gel blocks, and checking them with the BB shot, is important to achieve some useful standard of comparison. Not something necessarily easy to accomplish in a backyard, though. Even the hosted mobile manufacturer gel events usually can't provide for the continued control of temperature and other ambient environmental conditions once the gel blocks are removed and set out for use. They're enjoyable for the participants, though. ;)
 
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I just got a December copy of Handloader Magazine and one of the topics is on the .45 acp & barrel length. Now they didn't test a lot of different ammo but did test several barrel lengths. The ammo used was Remington 185 gr. HP (R45AP2) & Remington 230 gr. FMJ (R45AP4). Barrel lengths were 3.6", 4.25", 5", 10", 16", & 24". For this topic, I'm only going to compare the results of comparing a 3.6" to a 5" barrel. The velocity of a 185 gr. JHP out of a 3.6" barreled pistol was 956 fps average, and 1,061 fps average out of a 5" barreled pistol. That was a loss of 105 fps for a 185 gr. JHP. The velocity of a 230 gr. FMJ out of a 3.6" barreled gun was 780 fps average, and 855 fps average out of a 5" barreled pistol. That was a loss of only 75 fps for a 230 gr. FMJ. So for this ammo comparision it seems that there was less velocity loss with the 230 gr. FMJ, but only 30 fps less of a loss. Take this info for what its worth. LM
 
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