Can anyone explain Lil'Gun powder performance?

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Buck13

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I find the pressure/velocity data and the talk of flame cutting and hot guns with Lil'Gun perplexing and fascinating.

On the one hand, the high velocities at low pressures seem to suggest that it has burn characteristics that are unusual: that it somehow comes up to a moderate pressure and continues burning at that pressure for a long time, generating a lower but wider pressure curve over time. Since this means the pressure DOESN'T rise too quickly to raise pressure before the bullet moves much, but DOES continue burning well for a long time as the bullet moves down the barrel and the volume behind it increases, does that mean it burns more slowly yet more persistently than other slow magnum pistol powders like H110, AA#9, 2400, and 4227?

But then why does it have a reputation for flame cutting and statements that it makes someone's gun hotter after a few shots than other powders. These claims seem to be relative even to the true magnum powders named above. My naive physics says that hotter gases have higher pressure (for the same amount of gas, which seems like it should come from the same amount of powder, more or less) and that expansion (as the bullet moves along) should cool the gas, and my naive chemistry says that higher temps should speed the burning, yet Lil'Gun seems to be able to be very hot, yet burning slowly, yet burning well over more time than other powders.

I guess that a very slow burn at a high temp, producing less pressure at any instant due to less gas but transferring MORE heat due to a longer burn time at that temperature, and producing high velocity by sustaining the pressure curve much farther to the right as the bullet accelerates (apparently all Cartesian test guns are aimed to your right!) could explain this.

Am I on the right track in this thinking? Has anyone seen actual piezo plots of pressure vs time for these powders that would show a uniquely broad but low peak for Lil'Gun?
 
I use lil-gun in .458 Socom AR with 405gn 45/70 HC bullets, getting around 1730, don’t care about the flame cutting, I have extra BCG and it built in a Anderson lower.

Also use Lil-Gun in .50 BW! don’t know the 350gn doing whocares FPS!
 
I find the pressure/velocity data and the talk of flame cutting and hot guns with Lil'Gun perplexing and fascinating.

On the one hand, the high velocities at low pressures seem to suggest that it has burn characteristics that are unusual: that it somehow comes up to a moderate pressure and continues burning at that pressure for a long time, generating a lower but wider pressure curve over time. Since this means the pressure DOESN'T rise too quickly to raise pressure before the bullet moves much, but DOES continue burning well for a long time as the bullet moves down the barrel and the volume behind it increases, does that mean it burns more slowly yet more persistently than other slow magnum pistol powders like H110, AA#9, 2400, and 4227?

But then why does it have a reputation for flame cutting and statements that it makes someone's gun hotter after a few shots than other powders. These claims seem to be relative even to the true magnum powders named above. My naive physics says that hotter gases have higher pressure (for the same amount of gas, which seems like it should come from the same amount of powder, more or less) and that expansion (as the bullet moves along) should cool the gas, and my naive chemistry says that higher temps should speed the burning, yet Lil'Gun seems to be able to be very hot, yet burning slowly, yet burning well over more time than other powders.

I guess that a very slow burn at a high temp, producing less pressure at any instant due to less gas but transferring MORE heat due to a longer burn time at that temperature, and producing high velocity by sustaining the pressure curve much farther to the right as the bullet accelerates (apparently all Cartesian test guns are aimed to your right!) could explain this.

Am I on the right track in this thinking? Has anyone seen actual piezo plots of pressure vs time for these powders that would show a uniquely broad but low peak for Lil'Gun?
Well, Hodgdon's pretty much says it:
"Lil’ Gun is an advanced technology propellant designed for 410-bore shotshell reloaders. The 410 shotshell has long been difficult to load due to shortcomings in powder fit, metering, and burning characteristics, but no longer. Lil’ Gun was designed to fit, meter and perform flawlessly in the 410-bore. No more spilled shot or bulged cases. In addition, Lil’ Gun has many magnum pistol applications and is a superb choice for reloading the 22 Hornet."

It's like most double-base/ball.410 shotshell/hi-vel .22 powders. Burns quick with lots of gas to move a heavy load down a long, wide pipe with very little constriction/resistance from friction OR a very small, light load down a very tight pipe with nearly full-constriction/friction resistance. 2400 was originally developed for the .22Hornet, turned out to be a good .410 shotshell powder, then when "magnum" handgun loadings came around, turned out to be good for them, too. A410 is obviously a .410 powder and so was H110 originally - same as W296. The complaint with Lil'Gun being "hot" is also true of .410 hulls. You can find lots of complaints about Lil'Gun "burning up" hulls. Which may be why Hodgdon is trying slowly and quietly to refocus demand for it to magnum pistols.
 
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I did a lot of reading on it a while back as I was interested in using it in 50 Beowulf, 300 BLK, and 357 Magnum. What my research told me was that it does tend to be hotter than other powders, but the only actual first hand documented account of flame cutting from only using Lil Gun that I could actually find was from a single individual, every other reference I could find (at that time) was basically heresay. Along the lines of "I heard" or "so and so says". But no substantive documented evidence other than one single case. So I don't think it's any more likely to flame cut than what happens with any heavy magnum if you shoot a lot of max pressure hot loads through it with any of the common powders. Perhaps in the case of Lil Gun, one may be more likely to load to the max and shoot more max pressure loads as it does seem to have less perceived recoil at least to me. The first thing I noticed using it myself is it doesn't "gas" like other powders, a full charge of lil gun under a 158 JSP will not cycle my Coonan 1911 357 reliably, and will never lock back on empty mag. I get full functionality in the Coonan a full grain below max charge with the same bullet with H110 using Hodgdons load data. You also had to push it pretty hard to get an AR15 to cycle with 50 BW reliably. Same with 300BLK, was difficult to walk the line of subsonic while reliably cycling in short barrels (7.5 and 10.5) with standard gas blocks. I also noticed that it definitely heated up my suppressor far more than any other powder I used with that platform. For comparison, the can is a Hybrid 46. 20 rounds of 220 with Lil Gun ahieved the same suppressor temps as 10 rounds of 338 Lapua Magnum using H1000, if shot at the same rate of fire. That's hot, hot enough to see it smoking and to cause excessive heat distortion through optics. To get that same temp with RL7 or SBR Socom in the 300BLK takes a couple of mag dumps. It seems to be counter intuitive to the basic physics theory that dictate pressure = heat, as it does seem to generate more heat at a lower pressure. I do not understand why or how, I just know that's the results I get. All in all, I don't think it's a bad powder, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for big magnum revolvers if it's all I had, but I do think there are better options out there.
 
Actually, H110 was originally a WWII surplus powder loaded in the .30 Carbine (Handloaders Propellant Profiles reference). But regarding Lil’Gun, I’ve used it in my .300 BO, .30 Herrett and .32-20 carbine, where it performed very well. I haven’t noticed any difference in barrel temperatures compared to H4227 or H110, but then I wasn’t looking for that either. Fired about 150 rounds so-loaded in my SP-101 .32 Magnum, couldn’t see any new flame cutting/damage of the top strap or forcing cone - admittedly a tiny test. Frankly I don’t chase after that last 50 fps anymore, and have other powders which perform about as well or better, so I won’t be replacing my 5-year-old bottle.




.
 
Depending on the data source, I remember seeing some loads in which H110/W296 outran Lilgun. But then there are other loads in which Lilgun takes the velocity title with lower pressure.

A while back I loaded the Hornady 300 gr XTP over 28 gr H110 for 1481 fps out of a .454 Ruger SRH 7.5" bbl, but 29 gr Lilgun hit 1663 fps. And those cases nearly fall out of the chambers. Neither of those two are at book max.

As to gun wear with Lilgun, I did read alot about accelerated throat erosion. Can't remember if it was large charges and light bullets or what. I haven't shot too much of it, but it would be my go-to if I were looking for shear performance with heavy jacketed in the .454.
 
The first thing I noticed using it myself is it doesn't "gas" like other powders, a full charge of lil gun under a 158 JSP will not cycle my Coonan 1911 357 reliably, and will never lock back on empty mag. I get full functionality in the Coonan a full grain below max charge with the same bullet with H110 using Hodgdons load data.
Interesting. How far down the barrel is the gas port in that gun?
 
I have loaded .357, .41, .44 and .45C with L'il Gun.

I like this powder, shoots good.

I don't chase velocity, is prefer accuracy. Load from published minimum and load up to best accuracy.
 
There are a ton of chemicals added to your nitro cellulose that I can't begin to explain. In most cases adding a high level of nitroglycerin will increase flame temperatures, and tightgroup is hated by some for that reason. It seems to increase the power density as well. That might be the first check if your really curious. I have avoided the powder for exactly that reason. My guns are older and family guns that can't be replaced. Part of the reason I'm so interested in universal.
 
There are a ton of chemicals added to your nitro cellulose that I can't begin to explain. In most cases adding a high level of nitroglycerin will increase flame temperatures, and tightgroup is hated by some for that reason. It seems to increase the power density as well. That might be the first check if your really curious. I have avoided the powder for exactly that reason. My guns are older and family guns that can't be replaced. Part of the reason I'm so interested in universal.
been using Universal since the beginning of my reloading, it stays stocked in my bucket
 
Lil Gun, w296, H110 same powder family. In 357 mag, 44 mag & 460, Hodgdon data show Lil Gun needs more powder to get near same velocity. Lil Gun would seem to burn slower then 296/110, but not by much.
This is when using the same bullets, normal for caliber. Like 158/357, 240/44 & 250/460.

Any damage done is caused by lignt for caliber bullets. Light weight bullets need larger amount of powder. More powder , more wear and tear.

So, avoid the lighter bullets.
 
There are a ton of chemicals added to your nitro cellulose that I can't begin to explain. In most cases adding a high level of nitroglycerin will increase flame temperatures, and tightgroup is hated by some for that reason. It seems to increase the power density as well. That might be the first check if your really curious. I have avoided the powder for exactly that reason. My guns are older and family guns that can't be replaced. Part of the reason I'm so interested in universal.
I seem to have a vague recollection of an article saying that very thing..that lil gun had a higher level of nitroglycerin than other similar powders.
 
Lil Gun, w296, H110 same powder family. In 357 mag, 44 mag & 460, Hodgdon data show Lil Gun needs more powder to get near same velocity. Lil Gun would seem to burn slower then 296/110, but not by much.
This is when using the same bullets, normal for caliber. Like 158/357, 240/44 & 250/460.

Any damage done is caused by lignt for caliber bullets. Light weight bullets need larger amount of powder. More powder , more wear and tear.

So, avoid the lighter bullets.
Powder volume changes everything. The less powder you can burn the cooler everything stays. 23 grains of 4227 keeps my 308 barrel basically cold for a 50 round string. 10 full power 50 grain loads will have the same barrel very warm and 20 hot.
 
Haha, never. I mean, the Coonan is .357 diameter, what's a couple thousandths amongst friends? (there is likely a "she said" joke in there somewhere). Lol
Probably several jokes, if we think long enough...

.45 Colt guys sometimes get all superior about the 23 thousandths between that and the .44 Magnum. I've taken to sometimes calling mine the .43 Magnum just to be honest, and for humorous effect. This may be one of many examples of why my spousal critter often says "No one understands your jokes."
 
Probably several jokes, if we think long enough...

.45 Colt guys sometimes get all superior about the 23 thousandths between that and the .44 Magnum. I've taken to sometimes calling mine the .43 Magnum just to be honest, and for humorous effect. This may be one of many examples of why my spousal critter often says "No one understands your jokes."
I still use the .45 joke, people are like, “ You Seriously used that”

I carry a .45 because they don’t make a 46

2 WW’s yeah .45!
 
I still use the .45 joke, people are like, “ You Seriously used that”

I carry a .45 because they don’t make a 46

2 WW’s yeah .45!

We can all joke around a bit...as long as it's clear that the 45 Colt is in fact superior to 44 Magnum in every way. (I'm kidding...settle down folks. Well, mostly kiddding).
 
We can all joke around a bit...as long as it's clear that the 45 Colt is in fact superior to 44 Magnum in every way. (I'm kidding...settle down folks. Well, mostly kiddding).
Yes, but no one's ever called the .45 Colt "the most powerful handgun in the world" in a popular movie.* Perception trumps reality all too often.

*(Wildly inaccurate though it was.)
 
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