Can anyone explain Lil'Gun powder performance?

[Mark_Mark]

We can all joke around a bit...as long as it's clear that the 45 Colt is in fact superior to 44 Magnum in every way. (I'm kidding...settle down folks. Well, mostly kiddding).

I say cover your bases and get them both! Then no jokes will ever apply

I will! with the WA mag ban, I’m going to start carrying 1 shot and you drop revolvers.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Interesting. How many loadings do shotshell hulls usually last?

Beats me. That’s why I was peeking and poking around about shotgun loading. I’ve never loaded shotshell until recently. From what I have found some casings will outlast brass while others start cracking after half a dozen times. There’s ways to help them last longer and powder choice is one. Funny thing is I also found a lot of shotgun loaders who don’t like H110 because it’s dirty. Never heard that from brass reloaders.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Beats me. That’s why I was peeking and poking around about shotgun loading. I’ve never loaded shotshell until recently. From what I have found some casings will outlast brass while others start cracking after half a dozen times. There’s ways to help them last longer and powder choice is one. Funny thing is I also found a lot of shotgun loaders who don’t like H110 because it’s dirty. Never heard that from brass reloaders.

I got 209 primers!

 

[Buck13]

And then Ruger came around and said, “Here’s your .46…”

I saw a Super Redhawk with the 9.5" barrel in .480 Ruger at a consignment gun shop a few years ago. Ugly little bugger, but also very cool. I was slightly tempted, but I seriously doubt I'll do any handgun hunting, so it seemed stupid to get anything that used bullets that expensive.

Unlike some of the .460 and .500 S&W Magnums I've seen in used cases, it didn't come with 2/3 of a box of ammo!

 

[ballman6711]

I have a 5 1/2" (or thereabouts) Taurus chambered in .480 Ruger, and I can tell you it is a handful with full power loads. And at $2 a shot for factory ammo, it's not cheap either.

BUT, when you absolutely have to kill a grizzly hiding behind an engine block with one shot....

I haven't used Lil Gun, but I do use H110 and plan on trying some 4227. I would try Lil Gun if I had some or could get some.

chris

 

[buck460XVR]

What my research told me was that it does tend to be hotter than other powders, but the only actual first hand documented account of flame cutting from only using Lil Gun that I could actually find was from a single individual, every other reference I could find (at that time) was basically heresay.

Bob Baker, President of Freedom Arms(The company was founded in 1978 by Wayne Baker and Dick Casull), was a big proponent of not using Lil' Gun in revolvers because of excessive and premature forcing cone erosion. He at one time presented substantial evidence of this. Was all the evidence I needed, since my experience with Lil "gun was that it made my guns, all of them regardless of the type of action, very hot and got them hot at a much quicker pace, than any other powder I use. So hot, that Handgun caliber carbines could not be handled. I also saw little to no gain in velocities, and no increase in accuracy over H110/W296 in any of my revolvers or carbines. Thus it made little to no sense to use it it any of my revolvers, even if the chance of excessive flame cutting was relatively small. Since my desire with my handmade ammo is accuracy and not squeezing the last FPS outta every shot, keeping my guns cooler at the range is a big plus. Used to be threads of Lil' Gun and how wonderful it is, was rampant on forums like this....now you see very few threads at all about it. When you do, it's not to exclaim how great it is, but to ask, "it is really as bad as they say it is?". This should tell us something. I used up the last of my Lil' Gun in the carbines, shooting a few rounds at at time. I see no need to buy any more of it in the future. Others are free to do what they want......it's their guns.

 

[EricBu]

Bob Baker, President of Freedom Arms(The company was founded in 1978 by Wayne Baker and Dick Casull), was a big proponent of not using Lil' Gun in revolvers because of excessive and premature forcing cone erosion. He at one time presented substantial evidence of this. Was all the evidence I needed, since my experience with Lil "gun was that it made my guns, all of them regardless of the type of action, very hot and got them hot at a much quicker pace, than any other powder I use. So hot, that Handgun caliber carbines could not be handled. I also saw little to no gain in velocities, and no increase in accuracy over H110/W296 in any of my revolvers or carbines. Thus it made little to no sense to use it it any of my revolvers, even if the chance of excessive flame cutting was relatively small. Since my desire with my handmade ammo is accuracy and not squeezing the last FPS outta every shot, keeping my guns cooler at the range is a big plus. Used to be threads of Lil' Gun and how wonderful it is, was rampant on forums like this....now you see very few threads at all about it. When you do, it's not to exclaim how great it is, but to ask, "it is really as bad as they say it is?". This should tell us something. I used up the last of my Lil' Gun in the carbines, shooting a few rounds at at time. I see no need to buy any more of it in the future. Others are free to do what they want......it's their guns.

In fact you too referenced what you "heard" or "somebody said", the exact heresay I'm talking about, but you called him out by name, I left it off, because quite frankly, he's gotten enough mileage out of this FUD. But what you did right here is exactly what I was talking about. This one person made a public statement regarding a product, presented limited and poorly documented evidence, and because of his position in the industry.......reloaders have been repeating this over and over until it's become fact. There are literally thousands of threads on hundreds of forums with this exact same discussion, and the only evidence ever presented is "Bob Baker said". Thats it. Nothing else. This is the one person who claimed to document flame cutting regarding lil gun that EVERYBODY references. I dug into the source, and his "evidence" is not remotely conclusive, and in fact his entire presentation comes across more as simply being butt hurt with the manufacturer. There is no other source of quantifiable evidence or documentation presented anywhere that I could find at the time I researched this than that single individual's statements. If you know of any, I'd welcome you presenting it here, as I am always keen on being introduced to new information, especially if it is actually legitimate and well presented. Anyway, as I said, there is lots of "so and so said" and "I heard", but the actual genuine evidence is limited. I don't think its a great powder, and I don't think it's a bad powder. It has it's place. But the entire flame cutting FUD is simply unfounded, no more prevalent than any similar powder if you are shooting high pressure max loads on a regular basis. Let's use our collective heads here please......if lil gun was destroying forcing cones on revolvers, a hardened steel component.......what might you think it would do to the light weight stainless gas impingement system on an AR15 shooting 50 Beowulf using FORTY grains of Lil Gun? Come on...please. Or how about those folk shooting sub 300 BLK through 9mm cans? Like the Osprey 9? If lil gun melted forcing cones...what might happen to a small volume aluminum 9mm can on a 7.5 inch barrel? Well....in fact nothing. It gets hot, hotter than others as has been discussed........but they ain't melting off the end of the barrel. In fact, in that combination, it really doesn't get any hotter than H110. Both H110 and Lil Gun are waaayyyyy hotter than RL7. If this stuff was soooooo destructive as to be flame cutting hardened steel forcing cones at the rate attributed to it......pretty sure it'd turn an aluminum suppressor into molten lava after about 3 shots. But it doesn't, and literally thousands of people happily run it in thumper ARs, Sub Blackout, and BFRs. It's not my choice for those, but the FUD really has no basis.

 

[buck460XVR]

In fact you too referenced what you "heard" or "somebody said", the exact heresay I'm talking about, but you called him out by name, I left it off, because quite frankly, he's gotten enough mileage out of this FUD. But what you did right here is exactly what I was talking about. This one person made a public statement regarding a product, presented limited and poorly documented evidence, and because of his position in the industry.......reloaders have been repeating this over and over until it's become fact. There are literally thousands of threads on hundreds of forums with this exact same discussion, and the only evidence ever presented is "Bob Baker said". Thats it. Nothing else. This is the one person who claimed to document flame cutting regarding lil gun that EVERYBODY references. I dug into the source, and his "evidence" is not remotely conclusive, and in fact his entire presentation comes across more as simply being butt hurt with the manufacturer.

Well, I'll take Bob's word over some random internet poster, every time. Using Lil' Gun in MY revolvers, I personally experienced more forcing cone erosion than with H110/W296, along with the extreme heat created. I wasn't that worried about my guns melting down, only about burning my hands while trying to shoot them. Yes, the guns got that hot. That in itself was enough for me to quit using the powder, even before I saw anything from Bob Baker. For clarification, I never shot light for caliber bullets. I also shoot very little in any, of my handloads at max pressure/velocities. Again, I load for accuracy. While the amount of increased erosion was slight, it was noticeably more, and because I shoot my revolvers a lot, it adds up. For someone who never shoots more than a mag/cylinder full, or two at a time, the extreme heat is probably not an issue. For platforms other than revolvers, the amount of flame cutting is probably no more than with other powders. But what happens with hot gases and burning particulates at the forcing cone is another thing. Again, if Lil' Gun lived up to all the hype it received when handloaders first started t use in in magnum revolvers, then maybe the small risk to my revolvers would be a wash. But as I said before, the performance and the accuracy just wasn't there. Add the extreme heat and the inability to comfortably shoot a firearm for more than 20 rounds and there is no legitimate reason for me to use it....period. I doubt very much if all the hub-dub about Lil' Gun and it's risks to revolvers is because of Bob Baker. The amount of threads on the various gun/handloading forums is evidence that many others think there is something going on.

Do you actually shoot revolvers? Do you use Lil' Gun in them if you do? Because your entire presentation comes across more as simply being butt hurt with the manufacturer. As I said before, what others use in their firearms is perfectly fine with me. But I have no reason to use Lil' Gun in any of my revolvers, even if it was given to me. You sir, are free to do things differently, that's your right. So are others that are happy with Lil' Gun. Reason why so many different powders are out there is because everyone has a different favorite flavor. We are lucky to have the varieties available to us to be able to pick "favorites".

 

[EricBu]

Well, I'll take Bob's word over some random internet poster, every time. Using Lil' Gun in MY revolvers, I personally experienced more forcing cone erosion than with H110/W296, along with the extreme heat created. I wasn't that worried about my guns melting down, only about burning my hands while trying to shoot them. Yes, the guns got that hot. That in itself was enough for me to quit using the powder, even before I saw anything from Bob Baker. For clarification, I never shot light for caliber bullets. I also shoot very little in any, of my handloads at max pressure/velocities. Again, I load for accuracy. While the amount of increased erosion was slight, it was noticeably more, and because I shoot my revolvers a lot, it adds up. For someone who never shoots more than a mag/cylinder full, or two at a time, the extreme heat is probably not an issue. For platforms other than revolvers, the amount of flame cutting is probably no more than with other powders. But what happens with hot gases and burning particulates at the forcing cone is another thing. Again, if Lil' Gun lived up to all the hype it received when handloaders first started t use in in magnum revolvers, then maybe the small risk to my revolvers would be a wash. But as I said before, the performance and the accuracy just wasn't there. Add the extreme heat and the inability to comfortably shoot a firearm for more than 20 rounds and there is no legitimate reason for me to use it....period. I doubt very much if all the hub-dub about Lil' Gun and it's risks to revolvers is because of Bob Baker. The amount of threads on the various gun/handloading forums is evidence that many others think there is something going on.

Do you actually shoot revolvers? Do you use Lil' Gun in them if you do? Because your entire presentation comes across more as simply being butt hurt with the manufacturer. As I said before, what others use in their firearms is perfectly fine with me. But I have no reason to use Lil' Gun in any of my revolvers, even if it was given to me. You sir, are free to do things differently, that's your right. So are others that are happy with Lil' Gun. Reason why so many different powders are out there is because everyone has a different favorite flavor. We are lucky to have the varieties available to us to be able to pick "favorites".

And I see you double down on the "Bob Said". Then throw in a few personal attacks, just because well, that's what you do when you can't bring facts...we all now how that works don't we? Just like I said in my original post. Just like I referenced, and just like I pointed out was exactly what would happen. You have no evidence, no other information, other than the same tired statement from years past presented by a single individual. It's actually laughable how you brought this to the table. You've now turned this into EVERY OTHER THREAD EVER about Lil Gun by presenting the same unfounded claims that are literally years and years old and have been proven completely unfounded, with no follow up documentary evidence. Well Done. BTW, do I actually shoot revolvers. Ha. That's hilarious. You've no idea son. I'm sure this thread will get locked now, too bad, because until you came along and started repeating the same old unfounded and quite frankly, wrong, information, it was an interesting discussion on Lil Gun with some value. Well done, well done.

 

[Buck13]

Could we get back to my question about pressure curve graphs? Do load testers guard those like a precious trade secret? I don’t see why they would, yet I rarely see such graphs. Am I the only dork who’s interested, even though I have little use for them?

 

[EricBu]

Could we get back to my question about pressure curve graphs? Do load testers guard those like a precious trade secret? I don’t see why they would, yet I rarely see such graphs. Am I the only dork who’s interested, even though I have little use for them?

Sorry,
Maybe you can find somebody who has Pressure Trace II and has actually worked up LG and compared it to something else in given calibers, other than that I don't know where you'd find any such beast, and I'm not sure it would provide what you want. The only pressure testing kit I've been privy too was all soley relevant to a given gun in a given caliber (most folk use Contenders who engage in this sort of thing). I'm sure there's other much more complex and modern methods, but I've personally only seen output from PTII. Another data point that might be interesting for you, if you know somebody with quikload, maybe have them work up comparables between LG and something else, maybe at % of max load (LG and H110 at 90% of max load for each generates x difference in pressure and y difference in velocity) and pressure at speciific velocities for each. Just tossing random thoughts out there.

And no, you're not the only dork interested in it.