Can flash hiders work a muzzle brakes?
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Zak Smith
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The most effective flash-hider on the market for an AR15/M16/M4 is the Vortex. Second is the Phantom. Characteristic of these flash-hider designs are long longitudinal slots.
Muzzle brakes or "compensators" work on the principle of harnessing the high-velocity gas exiting the muzzle to: (1) negate the rearward movement of the rifle and (2) redirect some gas in directions to compensate for the natural muzzle movement from firing.
For the former (#1), the "brake" effect comes by having those high-velocity gases put pressure on surfaces which are normal to ("at a right angle to ") the bore axis. As the gas hits those surfaces, it "pulls" the barrel forward, opposite the direction of recoil.
For the latter (#2), there are typically small holes drilled in the top and maybe on side of the comp for a "jet" effect" to counter-act the natural muzzle rise and to-the-strong-side movement.
Since the primary design feature allowing a brake/comp to work is a system of one or multiple surfaces normal to the bore axis, while the primary design feature of a conventional flash-hider is longitudinal slots, you can see how they are at odds.
This is not to say that an effective comp that was also an effectice flash-hider couldn't be designed... I think OPS-INC has tried to do this. Also note that a sound suppressor (the Class III item) also completely hides the muzzle flash, and acts as a pretty effective brake, since the whole point is to contain the high pressure gas.
-z
Muzzle brakes or "compensators" work on the principle of harnessing the high-velocity gas exiting the muzzle to: (1) negate the rearward movement of the rifle and (2) redirect some gas in directions to compensate for the natural muzzle movement from firing.
For the former (#1), the "brake" effect comes by having those high-velocity gases put pressure on surfaces which are normal to ("at a right angle to ") the bore axis. As the gas hits those surfaces, it "pulls" the barrel forward, opposite the direction of recoil.
For the latter (#2), there are typically small holes drilled in the top and maybe on side of the comp for a "jet" effect" to counter-act the natural muzzle rise and to-the-strong-side movement.
Since the primary design feature allowing a brake/comp to work is a system of one or multiple surfaces normal to the bore axis, while the primary design feature of a conventional flash-hider is longitudinal slots, you can see how they are at odds.
This is not to say that an effective comp that was also an effectice flash-hider couldn't be designed... I think OPS-INC has tried to do this. Also note that a sound suppressor (the Class III item) also completely hides the muzzle flash, and acts as a pretty effective brake, since the whole point is to contain the high pressure gas.
-z
artherd
member
Zak- As I understood it, the function of most brakes is to reduce the forward-moving jet of gas as much as possible. Either by containing it (suppressor) or redirecting it out to the side where it does nothing.
Dosen't the A2 flash hider (mis-named, it only 'hides' the flash from the shooter's sight picture so he can see impact, it actually AMPLIFIES the visable signature to an observer.) also reduce felt recoil and muzzle rise, as it has no slats on the bottom?
I wonder if a more 'PC' brake could be designed that would essentially look like a flash hider, but with a series of in-line holes, instead of slats? (yes, I live in CA...)
Dosen't the A2 flash hider (mis-named, it only 'hides' the flash from the shooter's sight picture so he can see impact, it actually AMPLIFIES the visable signature to an observer.) also reduce felt recoil and muzzle rise, as it has no slats on the bottom?
I wonder if a more 'PC' brake could be designed that would essentially look like a flash hider, but with a series of in-line holes, instead of slats? (yes, I live in CA...)
And to introduce a 3rd term...
Last fall when I did my yearly qualification with my M16A2, the Combat Arms Training & Maintenance instructor referred to the thing at the muzzle as a "Compensator". So they're putting more stock in the device's ability to keep down muzzle rise as opposed to reducing the flash signature. Hmmm.
Last fall when I did my yearly qualification with my M16A2, the Combat Arms Training & Maintenance instructor referred to the thing at the muzzle as a "Compensator". So they're putting more stock in the device's ability to keep down muzzle rise as opposed to reducing the flash signature. Hmmm.
Zak Smith
Member
artherd,
There's recoil and muzzle movement (rise), two different forces in different directions. Let's emphasize that. The recoil is a straight-back force, and the muzzle rise or deflection can be thought of as a force pushing the muzzle up (it's actually the recoil torquing the gun based on how you're holding it).
Anything with nonsymmetrical ports will affect muzzle movement, like you say the A2FH does. Unless there's considerable plane surface normal to the bore axis, there's not going to be much recoil check (brake) effect.
-z
All that forward momentum of the gas has to be transferred to something, and the force "pulls" the barrel forward. In other words, it started going straight forward out of the muzzle. If the gas ends up going a different direction something was pushed on pretty hard to change its direction.
There's recoil and muzzle movement (rise), two different forces in different directions. Let's emphasize that. The recoil is a straight-back force, and the muzzle rise or deflection can be thought of as a force pushing the muzzle up (it's actually the recoil torquing the gun based on how you're holding it).
Anything with nonsymmetrical ports will affect muzzle movement, like you say the A2FH does. Unless there's considerable plane surface normal to the bore axis, there's not going to be much recoil check (brake) effect.
-z
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The internal diameters of flash suppressors (or "flame dampers," as the British sometimes call them) and muzzle brakes/recoil compensators are generally quite different. The brake is usually just over bullet diameter, forcing the gases to exit to the sides (or impinge upon the angled plates, if you have a brake like that). The flash suppressor is generally much larger than bullet diameter, and (once the bullet has exited the front of the suppressor) the flow through the slots may even be INWARD rather than outward, just like an "ejector nozzle" in jet/rocket design. Some suppressors (e.g., .303 Lee-Enfield "jungle carbine") use an expanding cone instead, just like an expander nozzle on a rocket engine; the idea is to allow the gases to step down to atmospheric pressure more gradually, producing a stream of hot gases that projects straight forward instead of to the sides, and also to prevent so much "sidesplash" off the bullet base.
This is entirely theoretical, but I suspect the cone-type suppressor may actually increase recoil by a tiny amount, due to the more forward projection of the gases (or pressure effects normal to the cone inside surface, if you want to look at it that way).
This is entirely theoretical, but I suspect the cone-type suppressor may actually increase recoil by a tiny amount, due to the more forward projection of the gases (or pressure effects normal to the cone inside surface, if you want to look at it that way).
son of a gun
member
The Nor-Cal Precision Night Hawk Tactical Rifle With Tactical Vent System & Flash Hider incorporates all of the attributes of both the Base Precision Rife and the Tactical Rifle With Tactical Vent System described above. In addition this rifle includes the best flash hider available on the market today. The unbeatable attributes of this system are:
last but not least a muzzle brake that reduces the flash and dust signature to almost nothing. A side note was reduced felt recoil.
Muzzle flash with the 7.62 (.308 Winchester) is reduced by a phenomenal 99+ percent.
Recoil reduction - resulting in quicker target recovery/followup shots.
Side venting of gasses - so as to help protect your night vision
Diffuses sound cone - makes it difficult to locate you by audible means
Reduces pressure and volume of gasses from the muzzle - reduces your dust signature.
Muzzle flash with the 300 Winchester Magnum is reduced by 95+ percent.
Nearly impossible to see at 20-25 yards away
Reduces dust and recoil even more than the Tactical Rifle With Tactical Vent System described above.
Important Note: This system does not suppress sound. The system diffuses sound by simply redirecting it and thus making it hard to locate the shooter.
http://www.norcalprecision.com/nighthawkmuzzlebrakesystemphotos.html
last but not least a muzzle brake that reduces the flash and dust signature to almost nothing. A side note was reduced felt recoil.
Muzzle flash with the 7.62 (.308 Winchester) is reduced by a phenomenal 99+ percent.
Recoil reduction - resulting in quicker target recovery/followup shots.
Side venting of gasses - so as to help protect your night vision
Diffuses sound cone - makes it difficult to locate you by audible means
Reduces pressure and volume of gasses from the muzzle - reduces your dust signature.
Muzzle flash with the 300 Winchester Magnum is reduced by 95+ percent.
Nearly impossible to see at 20-25 yards away
Reduces dust and recoil even more than the Tactical Rifle With Tactical Vent System described above.
Important Note: This system does not suppress sound. The system diffuses sound by simply redirecting it and thus making it hard to locate the shooter.
http://www.norcalprecision.com/nighthawkmuzzlebrakesystemphotos.html
artherd
member
Zak, good point, with the slats in a traditional FH, I suppose the gas jet angle would be normal (90*) only for a very short amount of time (long enough for the bullet to pass say 1/4" past the initial opening of the slats) and hover around 45-30* range for the legenth of most FH devices. I would still expect some recoil reduction, but not much.
Gewehr98- remenber that FHs (like the A2 at least) actually AMPLIFY the observed flash signature. Their only purpose is to provide a narrow channel of darkness above the rifle that the shooter can look through and see his target get hit.)
Gewehr98- remenber that FHs (like the A2 at least) actually AMPLIFY the observed flash signature. Their only purpose is to provide a narrow channel of darkness above the rifle that the shooter can look through and see his target get hit.)
son of a gun
member
I'll have them send me a free sample and I'll let you know.
shoobe01
Member
Things I have gleaned from this topic over time (in no particular order):
- Flash hiders (good ones, disregard the old cone-type) work by mixing barrel gasses with outside air to complete combustion before they get outside. There are a number of ways to do this, so a flash-hider could also be made to be an effective brake. Most people (and armies, etc.) usually only care about one thing, though, so that's what gets built.
- As far as I can tell, most people who build muzzle devices don't have degrees in fluid dynamics or anything and don't model or test them much. There are a lot of bad devices out there.
- The M16 birdcage is a simple flash hider. Not bad really these days, btw; hardly any flash. Yes, the bottom port on it was covered to reduce the dust kicked up by firing close to the ground.
- I had an AR-18 (three ports, missing the downward one), and when we fired rollover prone in this one class it didn't just kick up dust, but dug a hole about 3" deep after only a few rounds. There's plenty of gas coming out.
- At this class we fired everything at night just to see the flash. Wow is a crowned AR a lot of flash. Birdcages are nice enough, tiny lick of fire 3mm long out of the AR18 (like the original AR15).
- My FAL (clone) has a Smith Vortex brake (same company and name as the Vortex flash-hider, but totally different just to confuse us). Its great in every way, and is also a pretty good flash hider on the few times I have fired it at night.
- The Vortex flash hider sometimes (it is claimed) increases accuracy. As most people see a reduction in accuracy with any muzzle device, that might be an interesting topic. Anyone seen a difference between crowned and adding or changing a brake or flash hider? My Smith showed no detectable difference.
- Flash hiders (good ones, disregard the old cone-type) work by mixing barrel gasses with outside air to complete combustion before they get outside. There are a number of ways to do this, so a flash-hider could also be made to be an effective brake. Most people (and armies, etc.) usually only care about one thing, though, so that's what gets built.
- As far as I can tell, most people who build muzzle devices don't have degrees in fluid dynamics or anything and don't model or test them much. There are a lot of bad devices out there.
- The M16 birdcage is a simple flash hider. Not bad really these days, btw; hardly any flash. Yes, the bottom port on it was covered to reduce the dust kicked up by firing close to the ground.
- I had an AR-18 (three ports, missing the downward one), and when we fired rollover prone in this one class it didn't just kick up dust, but dug a hole about 3" deep after only a few rounds. There's plenty of gas coming out.
- At this class we fired everything at night just to see the flash. Wow is a crowned AR a lot of flash. Birdcages are nice enough, tiny lick of fire 3mm long out of the AR18 (like the original AR15).
- My FAL (clone) has a Smith Vortex brake (same company and name as the Vortex flash-hider, but totally different just to confuse us). Its great in every way, and is also a pretty good flash hider on the few times I have fired it at night.
- The Vortex flash hider sometimes (it is claimed) increases accuracy. As most people see a reduction in accuracy with any muzzle device, that might be an interesting topic. Anyone seen a difference between crowned and adding or changing a brake or flash hider? My Smith showed no detectable difference.
artherd
member
On this point, you are of course correct. The A2 FH does reduce secondary dust signature of the blast (not flash however! Note the latter is light
when used prone near the ground.However, the direct primary observable flash signature, especially in night vision (IR) is severely increased. Wish I could post the photos I have, but they're not approved for release. So you'll have to just 'take my word for it' (I hate when people say that.)
mondocomputerman
Member
What woud you consider a sland muzzle break on an AK? Does it reduce any flash?
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