Can J-frames (442/642) short stroke?

[pmandayam]

I have the polymer M&P Bodyguard 38 and I've noticed that sometimes if I don't reset the trigger fully before pulling the trigger again, the cylinder cycles but it's a misfire. It's similar to the Ruger LCR revolvers that are known to short stroke.

My question is, do J-frame (442/642) triggers also have this short stroke issue?

 

[lee n. field]

I experimented with it once. I got it to do that once only. It's very hard to do on purpose.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I think many DA revolvers will do this. It is more operator error than the tool not working right in my mind.

 

[Mizar]

"Short stroking" is not an issue, but a mishandling - there is a subtle difference...

 

[wcwhitey]

I have never done it in the J frame but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. When I first got my little I frame with the tiny grips it happened a bunch as they made it very had to properly work the trigger. I have big hands and some more need to the grips made that go away.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I nave shot a M638, M642 and currently a M442 and never had one do that to me.
I have shot them a lot too.

 

[cfullgraf]

I nave shot a M638, M642 and currently a M442 and never had one do that to me.
I have shot them a lot too.

Same here with my M642, M442, and M437 (shooting DA with the gun).

But I do make sure I allow the trigger to fully travel for reset.

Note, I use the M437 as a practice revolver for the Centennial models. Even though it has an exposed hammer, I practice with it shooting double action. It saves some wear and tear on the M642 and M442.

 

[Tallball]

I have two of them and I've never managed to short-stroke one.

I use a beater Taurus for most of my snubby practice. I want my newer 642 to outlast me.

 

[Mizar]

Every. Revolver. Will misfire. If you short stroke it. Every. Short stroking it means you are not letting the trigger to fully reset, because you are "riding the reset". What you feel, that mechanical "click", is not put there to tell you to pull the trigger again, but it comes from parts interaction. Some mechanisms are more prone to short stroking for people riding the reset, because there is a "false reset" like you people like to call it. Those clicks you are hearing/feeling comes first from the bolt engagement and then from the DA sear engagement with the trigger. That's it.

 

[bassjam]

I don't have any experience with shortstroking and live fire. However I've had a 337 and now a 442 and have never had what I'd consider a short stroke in thousands upon thousands of dry fires. I did have this happen once with an SP101 and it locked up from a short stroke, cylinder wouldn't turn, hammer wouldn't come back, eventually enough fidgiting on my part with the gun got it to work fine again after a 30 seconds or so. This was after hundreds of dryfires and my finger was getting pretty tired. Even though this was operator error I lost faith in the Ruger and sold it, I actively tried to reproduce that with my 442 and couldn't get it to lock up the same. I've done the same with my K6s and haven't had it lock up.

 

[Rock185]

It is not a mechanical "issue". Just as Mizar indicates, any revolver will fail to fire if the shooter does not allow the trigger to reset. This is even more likely to happen with guns subjected to "trigger jobs", where a lighter trigger spring is installed, no matter the manufacturer.

 

[Riomouse911]

Crud in the internals (old oil turned to shellac, bits of powder or bullet material debris, etc.) can cause reset issues, weak, or tinkered-with springs can delay or prevent a full reset, “panic shooting” as fast as one can under stress may keep a trigger finger from allowing a full reset and (as said above) people riding the trigger forward to stop right at the reset can cause DA revolvers to short stroke.

One can also short stroke a SA gun by not cocking the gun fully (to where the sear catches and holds the hammer) so the hammer moves forward but the cylinder advances. You end up skipping a round because when you do this you need to recock the hammer to fire…which advances the cylinder again . This happens when the shooter rushes a shot, I’ve been there, done that!.

Stay safe.

 

[MrBorland]

Here were some older thoughts on short-stroking:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/s-w-revolver-hitch.635090/#post-7849959

Short stroking it means you are not letting the trigger to fully reset, because you are "riding the reset"

Jerry Miculek short-stroking a Python, likely because he rides the reset (start at 2:40).

 

[Mizar]

Jerry Miculek short-stroking a Python, likely because he rides the reset.

Nope - he is just faster then the trigger. I get your point, but this is something 99% of the shooters won't experience because they are not fast enough. Personally, with a stock Colt I don't have a problem with slow trigger return, but with a S&W with lighter rebound spring I do. But I'm not a competitor. OP is having problems because he is riding the reset, simple as that - no need to dug deeper at this point. Maybe later, when he becomes more proficient with revolver shooting, but not now.

 

[MrBorland]

Nope - he is just faster then the trigger..

Nope - This is what JM says, but while not taking anything from JMs skill, he’s not above a little self promotion (he made a living shooting a gun, after all, so marketing his brand was likely necessary).

He’s never broken McGivern’s 5-shot record, and McGivern was known to shoot a pretty stock S&W. IOW, a stock return is faster than McGivern and Miculek.

I strongly suspect that he uses a stronger rebound spring, not because he outruns the return, but because the strong return helps push his finger forward. IOW, he rides the trigger. Normally a bad habit, but it works for JM (until he short-strokes a stock revolver) and he’s got power a’plenty in that trigger finger to spare

At any rate, we can each believe what we want since neither of us can prove our points, but we both agree that revolvers can be short-stroked by riding the trigger.

 

[UncleEd]

MrBorland,

Regarding Jerry Miculek and the Python
which brings us to Bill Wilson.

In shooting autos, Wilson is known to
fully ease his finger off and away
from the trigger. He says, most
recently within the last month or so,
that it's a habit he picked up because
of his extensive training on the Python,
his favorite DA revolver.

The Python had and maybe still has a
slower, softer return to reset than the
stock S&W revolver. Without pulling
off his finger, he could easily short stroke
the Python.

In the MIculek video, he is merely stating
fact that the Smith and Ruger resets are
more robust and more to his style of shooting.

I always ride the trigger forward and for
that reason do not like the Colt but
prefer the Smiths and Rugers.

 

[MrBorland]

Yet, whether Ruger, S&W, or Colt, if you don’t ride the trigger on the return, it’ll re-set just fine.

 

[UncleEd]

Yet, whether Ruger, S&W, or Colt, if you don’t ride the trigger on the return, it’ll re-set just fine.

Obviously your style of DA revolver shooting
is different than mine and many other
DA shooters who have always preferred
the S&W trigger over the Colt.

Yes, I know the pulling of the trigger on
the respective make of revolver has also
always been different. Again many if not
more DA revolver shooters prefer the Smith.

 

[MrBorland]

A DA trigger pull might be slow or fast, staged or smooth, but in the end, if you want a 2nd shot, the trigger needs to reset.

In the FWIW department, I’ve mainly shot S&Ws, and have only shot run-N-Gun games with them. Like most, I’ve lightened the action and short-stroked the trigger myself a time or two, and I considered it a user issue. I might short-stroke a (borrowed) Colt, but my opinion would be that it’s still user issue.

 

[edwardware]

My question is, do J-frame (442/642) triggers also have this short stroke issue?

Is it possible to short-stroke a 642? Yes. . . but it's operator error, not the gun's fault.

 

[Pat Riot]

I have had my 442 since 97. I have never experienced a short stroke with it.

 

[camsdaddy]

The only short stroke I have ever gotten with a J frame was after I tried to install springs. I returned to stock springs and learned to love them and have not had any more issues. A Ruger LCR on the other hand I can short stroke enough to convince me to sell.

 

[westernrover]

The Python has a notoriously sluggish reset. Watch Bill Wilson explain it starting at 1:10


So it doesn't take Miculek to over-run the trigger on a Python.
On a j-frame with a stock/factory rebound slide spring, it is hard to do. S&W characteristically have a strong reset. However, this is often one of the things people change to make the notoriously hard triggers on j-frames lighter. If the rebound slide spring has been swapped out for a wimpy one, the S&W's trigger reset can also be made sluggish.

You can't get an 8-pound trigger like on a Python and still have a powerful mainspring for positive primer ignition and also a heavy return spring for fast, positive reset. Light trigger, hard primer strike, fast trigger return, pick two.

 

[JERRY]

Double action revolvers aren't for the novice.

 

[LeftyRed]

I am a new Bodyguard owner too and have noticed I can “double clutch” it like my center fire LCR snubbies, but it’s not as often. Like what others have stated, it’s user error but most blame is put on a weaker trigger return spring. I would love to swap out my LCR38’s return spring for one of my rimfire ones and see what happens.