Can my Mosin be fixed?

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Forgiven1

Forgiven1

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Hi everyone,

My name is Matt, and I am brand new to this forum. I read where this is one of the most frequented gun forums so I thought I would stop in and see if I can find some help.



I recently purchased a Mosin Nagant. When I got it both the barrel and stock had been cut down. Since there was no front sight I could not really test the accuracy of the gun, but the bore looked good to me ( no bad pitting etc) and I intended to put a scope on it anyway.


Since the barrel had already been cut I smoothed the end with my lathe and put a slight chamfer on the tip with a threading tool. I also threaded the end for a break.

I used the RSI scope mount made a bent bolt for it and off to the range I went. Here is where the fun ended.

I have every screw on this tightened as much as a screw ever should be. However the accuracy with this gun is horrible. At only 50 yards this gun will shoot no better than a 5" pattern with 5-10 rounds.

My first suspect in this situation is always to check and re-check the mount screws and all were fine. My next suspect is of course me. With smaller calibers at this range I can typically shoot about 1" group with an occasional flyer in a multitude of rounds. But I thought maybe high caliber was different.

Anyway I got a vice and set up with it and the result was the same. There are of course times when I thought "hey look there" when the gun would shoot 2 or maybe 3 rounds in close proximity, but of course the next shot would then be about a 4 or even a 6" flyer:what:. Worse still most often after the flyer the pattern will not even re group. It might shout a couple off to where the flyer was in a group, or even start a new group.

The next thing I though was maybe I was getting strikes on the muzzle break but removing it made no difference.

Finally I thought, well maybe the new scope I bought was crap, so I pulled one from another gun that I can shoot said 1" patterns with and the result was the same. :barf:


I just dont know what else to try. The only other thing that came to mind is maybe the ammo is bad??? I am using mil surp ammo. I think mabye Hungarian? It came in a tuna can but not the normal kind. I was a square box that had been soldered shut. Heavy ball I think, green steel casings with a yellow tip..


Anyway I know its hard to trouble shoot a gun you dont have in your hands, but if anyone has any ideas I would be glad to hear them.


Thanks
 
Slug the barrel. Bore and bullet diameters varied a bunch in the things. If you have a 310 or greater bore, and you are using 308 bullets, groups will be messy.

And, have you used a plug gage at the muzzle? If there is a lot of wear at the muzzle, nothing you are going to do is going to help, outside of counterboring.
 
As SlamFire said, slug your barrel. Then find some quality ammo with bullets that best matches your bore. Milsurp can be hit and miss on quality. :)
 
 
Thanks guys for the quick replies.

I did as suggested and slugged the barrels ( been here one day and already I learned something new) of both my mosins ( put a greased fishing weight thought them). For one I got 311, and for the gun in question I got 312 as being the largest diameter of the weight when it came though.

I dont have a plug gauge. Shouldnt the fact that 6" was cut off of this barrel have the same effect as counter boring?


I measured the ammo I have and it trends toward 308. Are there mil surp ammos that lean toward 310, or would I have to buy high end ammo for this?


EDIT: BBBBill I just now saw your reply.

I dont think that I over tightened the screws. I'm clearly the one in this room with the least idea what hes doing, but I have been around enough fine threads and parts to know when to quit :)

Thanks also for your suggestions about bedding. For me that would be a last resort, but am certainly not opposed to doing what ever it takes. I didnt mention this before because I didn think it would matter, but the gun in question is in an archangel stock if it matters.
 
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Since the barrel had already been cut I smoothed the end with my lathe and put a slight chamfer on the tip with a threading tool. I also threaded the end for a break.
Click to expand...

Aside from what has been covered I suggest you watch this video. Also run a Google search of "muzzle crowning" as it doesn't take much of a burr on the muzzle to cause inaccuracy.

As to counterbore, do a Google of "counterbored muzzle" as one picture is worth 1,000 words. Yes, cutting the barrel down should have the same effect. My money is on a poor muzzle crown.

Ron
 
Ron you may be right. I am pretty sure, that I did hit the crow with 1500 sand paper when I was done, but I suppose its still possible there is a burr. I may recrown on the off chance that is the problem. Right now I am praying it is something that simple.


ApacheCoTodd,

Sure I can do that.





My camera is about about as good as the pattern my gun shoots when it comes to close ups but I thought I would give it a try for a picture of the crown.
 
The specs for 7.62x54R bullet diameter is .311". Don't know what diameter of bullet most use. I bought PPU's and they measure at .310".


If you reload, you can use the bullets for the British 303. The ones I got from Hornady measure .312". They work well.
 
Handload for that thing. .311 is what I use most often.

Buy some norma brass.

Expect groups of maybe one and a quarter inch at 100 yards. With the scope. Use a pistol scope mounted on the rear dovetail site.

Surplus ammo is horrible
 
The specs for 7.62x54R bullet diameter is .311". Don't know what diameter of bullet most use. I bought PPU's and they measure at .310".
Click to expand...

Its fairly cool here in my shop, about 70 deg F. At this room temp I just measured 4 shells and got 307,308 on all of them.:scrutiny:

I may sniff around for some other ammo. I dont have the equipment to reload yet, but its not out of the question.


Maybe for now I will pick up some of the PPUs. When I get this gun working right I will need some shells I can kill a deer with anyway.
 
You can't accurately measure spitzer bullets without pulling them out of the cases first.

The part that sticks out is not full bore diameter.
The part you have to measure is inside the case neck.

rc
 
Mil surplus ammo is TERRIBLE. For vintage military matches I've gone to sorting by overall weight and bumping the bullets back .010" to break the varnish seals and set a consistent OAL. Scores at 100yds went from 75-80/100 to 90-95/100.
 
I have a nice 28/30 Finn with a 308 bore, I would love to find some surplus ammo for it.
I do not intend to go into reloading, so it is a nonshooter for me.
 
Does anyone know where I can pick up a few boxes of decent ammo for under $1 each. I would like to try some brass ammo, preferably no corrosive and 150 ish grain. the 180s have really tired me out.:)

So far on the PPU with shipping the best thing I have come up with is about $1.05 per shell at 3 boxes.
 
I know the Prvi Partizan Ammunition 7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian (7.62x53mm Rimmed) 150 Grain Soft Point Box of 20 gets good reviews but personally I have never tried the stuff. Midway sells it for $17.79 a box. I haven't a clue what shipping will add to that. That is brass cased boxer primed reloadable. If you have any big box retail stores around you maybe give them a look.

Ron
 
the 180s have really tired me out
Click to expand...
And that right there could be the problem!



As far as your crown job?
Run a Q-Tip in & out, and around & round the muzzle, in all directions.

Any microscopic burs will pick up cotton fibers you should be able to easily see.

rc
 
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Avoid Hornady's, if you think you might reload. All I have seen of theirs is that they are steel casings.

Winchester sells some in what they call "Winchester: Metric Calibers".

Looking at their web sites, Hornady and Winchester, I couldn't find where they list their bullet diameters.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/65834

Keep in mind, that some surplus are loaded hotter than American ammo. Or so many say.
 
Ditch the muzzle break and shoot a group. Tell us what the results are.
 
Woot!!



We're making some progress men!

I went ahead and recrowed the bezel. Then I decided to "bite the bullet" and :barf: up the big bucks for some good ammo at a local shop.



When I went to the range all the parts including my scope mount had been removed so I could put the gun in my lathe, so this first group was at 50 yards with everything just bolted back together.


Military Surplus ammo @50 yards. Approx 6" group



Now as sad as that is it was still just a bit encouraging. At least now I had no wild bullets that could not be accounted for. So weather the recrown was actually needed or it just gave me a psychological boost I cant say, but we are headed in the right direction.

rcmodel,

That Q-tip idea is a great one BTW.


Anyway I decided there it was time to move to the good PPU ammo since I was on paper with the scope anyhow.


PPU ammo @ 50 yards freshly mounted scope. Approx 2.5" group.


Now I made some adjustment to my scope.



PPU @50 yards scope corrected. Approx 2"





Like I said not perfect, but this is progress. In fact I had never bothered to shoot this gun at 100 yards since it was such a dismal failure at 50, but with this new ammo in hand I decided to have a go at it.


Now I was assuming if the gun shot a 2" group at 50 it should potentially shoot a 4" group at 100. However that did not turn out to be the case. It appears that the groups deteriorated exponentially.:uhoh:

I shot multiple groups at 100 and got an average of 6-8".

Am I under a wrong impression that I should be getting 4" groups @ 100 yds?

All the shooting I did that day was admittedly off a bi-pod and not from a vice so there may be some potential for shooter error. However I am typically better than this, but always with a smaller caliber rifle. The largest caliber I have owned before this was a 30-30 and most of my shooting has been done with even smaller calibers than that.


Also if anyone can point me in the direction of some good threads on reloading so I can get a feel for what it would cost me to get set up with that I would love to take a look. If it does turn out that what I need is more practice there is no chance that I can afford this $60-80 bucks a day stuff.



I would like to thank every single person who has commented in this thread so far. I really appreciate everyone help, your help has been very valuable to me.
 
I would suggest buying yourself a Lee Classic Reloader for starters.
You Know, the " Wack A Mole ' kit.
Trust me, it has loaded some of the most accurate ammo I have ever shot out of my Mosin Nagants.
That was what I first started with for that rifle, and Two Boxes of Norma ammo even though I had a Full RCBS set up for my other guns.
Then when I tuned the loads as best I could, I started doing loads from a manual and using my scale for the different loads that I wanted to try.
Then after I bought my fifth Nagant, then I invested in RCBS dies for my press. But that was 10 years down the road.
I still have the Lee Classic Loader, and still use it from time to time.
Since it is portable, I take it camping with the rifle, and reload all weekend and just keep shooting to my hearts content.

BTW
If you want real accuracy, and a safer rifle:
When you can afford it, install a Timney Trigger with the Side Safety.
It makes a BIG differance, plus you get a thumb operated safety.
You have to Inlet the stock for it, but that isn't that hard, and your Archangle Stock may already be inletted for the timney trigger.
 
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Not bad at all considering where this began. I do believe hand loading and tweaking loads for the rifle would tighten that up. Yes, in theory a 2" group at 50 yards would aquatint to a 4" group at 100 yards but in real life things don't always work out that way. :)

Ron
 
The Archangel stock is already inletted for the Timney trigger. I also suggest dropping the dough for one.....I have one on one of my Mosins and it is about 500% better than the stock trigger.

As far as reloading gear goes.....cruise Craigslist for a used RCBS Rockchucker or JR press. Should be able to score one for around $50 or so. Should have an intact primer arm so that takes care of priming (if parts are missing, call up RCBS and I will bet you a buck they will send you the missing part).
Now you just need a powder beam scale (can find them on Craigslist or get an off the shelf Lee). A powder funnel for a couple of bucks......and a Harbor Freight micrometer for like $10. You will be able to reload with all that.

Be careful. Reloading gets real addictive real fast. It can become an intesively time consuming hobby.
 
I just measured some targets shot with my 91/30 in vintage military 'as issued' class matches this summer. My rifle, benched, off a front bag, iron sights and 'sorted' surplus ammo will shoot just under 3" at 100 and just under 5" at 200yds. These are 10 shot groups in a factory stock (free floated) with a factory trigger (polished). I have to be very mindful of the trigger pull or the groups open up dramatically. On of the best shooting aids I have found is a PAST wearable recoil pad. Vintage matches are 50 rounds and the PAST is a shoulder and SCORE saver!!
 
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