Can Sig Arms (or any manufacturer) learn from Toyota's Hiromu Naruse

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sirgilligan

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I have been reading an interview with the late Hiromu Naruse entitled " http://gazoo.com/racing/english/grmn/meister/vol_01/index.asp What is 'Automotive Seasoning'?".

Naruse was known as a "meister of automobile manufacturing". He recently died in an automobile accident in Germany. Management at Sig Arms probably already know about Mr. Naruse, but if not they should consider his genius.

Naruse compares the inception, creation, and completion of an automobile to that of preparing a culinary dish. For me the analogy is clear and meaningful. I love automobiles and I drive as many different types as possible. It doesn't matter if the automobile is a Honda Civic or a BMW 3 series, I enjoy "tasting" each vehicle and judging if the automobile was satisfying in its role.

Sig Arms attracts consumers with very high expectations. Sig's own advertising encourages users to imagine hellish conditions with zero malfunctions. The price of a Sig weapon suggests quality above that of a common weapon. I do not know if at Sig there are internal discussions of why their customers are so demanding or not, but if so, I propose one of the reasons is because they advertise to attract perfectionists.

I recently browsed Sig Arms career page and found that they are looking for managers with "Lean" and "Six Sigma" experience. I am a student of development processes and have read a lot about Lean Manufacturing, Six Sigma, Kanban, Quality Circles, SCRUM, and such things as Work In Progress (WHIP). A personal friend of mine is an expert in the field. You can see his blog at: http://www.shmula.com/about-peter-abilla/

I actively participate and define processes for zero defects in software engineering.

Sorry, I did digress, back to the main thought. Sig has a flavor and if they are not careful they are losing it quickly. The way information travels so quickly now puts great demands on companies that create high expectation for satisfaction.

"Naruse has long said that “just as in cuisine, the ‘flavor’ of a car is quite important.” The performance of the engine and chassis expressed by the specifications, equipment such as a navigation system and power steering, and other “specs” determine the basic performance of a motor vehicle and establish its attributes. This alone, however, does not make a car. In terms of cuisine, these are simply the ingredients, and preparing the ingredients according to the recipe alone does not complete the dish. It is the final seasoning that determines the quality of the food and whether it will impress the people who eat it."

Sig Arms has all of the ingredients, they have good recipes, but currently the seasoning seems to be off.

Has Sig been creating new combination of seasoning or have they just been remodeling?

"People may think that “seasoning” a car generally entails replacing parts such as the suspension or the wheels to make the handling firmer and adding aerodynamic parts to enhance the aerodynamic performance. This, however, is “remodeling,” and is not “seasoning.” Seasoning (fine-tuning) and remodeling are completely different. We want the customer to feel that the product is “delicious” and be happy with their choice, and to think, “Wow, I want to eat (i.e. drive) this again!” Toyota currently sells a wide variety of vehicles, but are all customers truly satisfied? I feel a sense of self-admonishment and believe that our products still have a long way to go. There may even be some customers who have never tasted the true “deliciousness” of a car. I want these customers to experience the taste of the real thing and to experience complete satisfaction. This is how we feel. I am confident that with our seasoning, Toyota’s cars become all the more “delicious.” "

Currently it feels like, it seems like, Sig Arms is not seeing that many of their customers are not experiencing complete satisfaction. Should a customer be completely satisfied? Some might quickly shout, "most people are not reasonable". However that is not the case, in truth the vast majority of people are reasonable. It is just an internal bias when one thinks that they are reasonable and others are not.

"The feel of the ride can change completely by changing the shock absorber shims by just two-tenths of a millimeter. Also, the quality of the ride that humans feel when driving is related to “longitudinal G-force” (“lateral G-force” is related to fear), and through experience and training, we can feel and adjust the force in units of 1/1000 of a G. The longitudinal G-force normally felt in an elevator is about 0.2 G, so this gives an idea of just how subtle our adjustments are. If these minute differences are taken in isolation, ordinary people won’t feel anything different. But when combined together with all the other minute differences, a big difference can be made to the “taste” of the car. "

The trigger pull of a gun could be compared to the lateral G-force described above. The weight of the slide, or the strength of the recoil spring, or simply the shape of the grip. Back to the car analogy, the handling could be perfect and if the engine is not, the entire composition is compromised.

"...most people cannot really tell the difference between high-end brand clothes and relatively inexpensive clothes simply by looking at them, but when worn, the differences become apparent. This is the case of high-quality products and of true tastes. It is exactly the same with cars... With a car, as in the case of my dear wife, the true flavor comes out after years of being together, through thick and thin. "

"To create good flavor, it is important to accentuate the good points (strengths) rather than eliminate every imperfection. If we were to create an all-round vehicle with no imperfections that practically no one would dislike, it wouldn’t have any flavor."


So, what is the flavor that I expect from Sig Arms. Reliability. What does that mean? It means it shoots every time, all the time, from day one to day 1000. It shoots anything I put in it and does so in a way that amazes. Sig weapons are not the prettiest, in my opinion. Even though they make attractive weapons, that is not their seasoning.

"When adding seasoning, it is necessary to determine one’s own flavor. Even if you were to conduct a survey and ask customers what kinds of flavor they want, you wouldn’t find the answer there. Rather, there are two possible questions that you could ask customers. Does it taste good or bad? Or, do you want to eat it again or not? This is because customers are not professionals, and if you increase or decrease the salt according to customer requests, the flavor will gradually become peculiar. There is no sense in seeking a middle of the road taste that practically no-one would dislike. "

The ever so common question on the forums is, "Would you buy a Sig?" and "Would you buy another Sig?". An answer of yes or no is sufficient because most of us are not professionals and therefore we don't really know what change would really address our concerns. For me as a software professional asking a user how they would have the software work rarely results in actionable information. Most users do not know the capabilities or constraints of a software system and therefore can not even image the possible solutions to a problem.

"At one point, there was an attempt to quantify my know-how and create a manual. In the end, however, it didn’t turn out well. This is because know-how is not the same as knowledge. Results such as “in this type of situation, I used this kind of countermeasure” are no more than solutions for specific problems. What is important is asking how the solution was reached, or why something was done the way it was. This is what we call technique or craftsmanship. Craftsmanship is not handed down through education."

When there are complaints about a particular Sig firearm often someone will respond with something like, "When these were made in Germany they didn't have these problems." Could it be that the method of making a Sig firearm was brought over the pond but not the model of why it was made the way it was made?

"Things that are learnt from others passively will never be useful. What is necessary is “nurturing.” In other words, you will not learn unless you feel that you must do something and want to do something and have the desire to learn and to take from others. Craftsmanship is handed down in implicit knowledge."

Is there a system of nuturing at Sig Arms? One wonders, but unless someone at Sig answers to this post we will never really know.

"Races are the best forum for handing down craftsmanship and nurturing human resources. Unexpected things happen all the time and things that must be done out of necessity occur constantly."

I propose to any and all gun manufactures a new type of race for their products. A competition where each company present chooses five weapons from their competitors assembly line. Then each company takes the weapon chosen from their own assembly line by their competitors and takes the weapon directly out of the box, applies lubrication, and then participate in a usage competition. I challenge all to this. Will any take this challenge?

"It is necessary to skillfully and accurately solve problems with limited time and tools. These types of things do not happen within a computer, but happen right before our eyes. It is under these extreme conditions that we focus entirely on winning the race and work as hard as we possibly can. The word “can’t” does not exist at the racetrack. This type of experience builds our character, and builds cars. Both the drivers and engineers focus their five senses to engage in a dialogue with the car under the extreme conditions of the race. It is through this dialogue that the perfect flavor becomes visible."

During this competition it would become apparent the flavor of each manufacturers creation.

"Since Toyota’s foundation, it has placed particular importance on checking based on the Genchi Genbutsu approach, and it is through this that the flavor of cars is created. As I mentioned earlier, what is important is not discussing automobile development based on words and data, but to actually install the parts, feel them with your own hands, and see them with your own eyes"

Genchi Genbutsu means go and see. Does each layer of the Sig Arms company organization go and see. From the top to the bottom? The CEO should go and see as well as the customer support representative. Maybe they already do this, but I do not think so. If they could catch the vision of Naruse they could surpass even the Swiss' reputation of quality.

I will end with Naruse's statement on what is needed and let it stand.

"A restaurant has a person who is responsible for determining the flavor of the dishes. That is the chef. The decisions of the chef are final. Dishes that the chef has determined unacceptable are never brought to a customer’s table; if the chef gives the okay, the dish will appear on the restaurant’s menu and will be served to customers no matter how many others object. Determining the flavor isn’t done by a majority vote. Deciding things by compromise is also highly objectionable.European automakers employ a master craftsman (meister) who is responsible for determining the flavor of the cars, and until that person gives the okay, the cars cannot be sold. I believe that Toyota needs this type of person in the future. A restaurant chef not only determines the flavor of the dishes, but has the authority to make decisions on all stages of preparation, right from procuring the ingredients. To me, the ideal would be for a member of the Toyota management team to be such a chef who understands completely the ingredients and the flavors."
 
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Interesting, but for me you have too much food and car stuff and not enough about Sigs problems, both the American problems and the German X-5 extractor problems.

"Management at Sig Arms probably already know about Mr. Naruse"

I would think so.


"Sig has a flavor and if they are not careful they are losing it quickly."

It's gone; already diluted beyond recognition. Just like old man Usedtobe, it's dead and gone.

It is usually best to simplify, not overcomplicate and overthink.

John
 
Here...

http://managementtoday-magazine.com...id=91:sig-sauer-inc&catid=36:featured-content

"At the time Cohen joined the company [12/2004; CEO 2006], SIG SAUER had 130 employees with sales of around $40 million, but he saw the potential for something much greater. “Within a month-and-a-half, I let go of 99 percent of the top management of the company and brought in people that fit the mold that I was seeking,” "

Would that mold be Kimber-ish? You know, big sales numbers, full steam ahead. He was CEO of Kimber.

Seems pretty straightforward.
 
If you want to know where Sig is headed as a company look at Kimber under Cohen's management. He is running the same playbook now at Sig.
 
I posted this to the SigForum as well and they deleted it and suspended my account.

What is wrong with the post that they would do this? That is strange.
 
tumblr_kzpwhsOleX1qb2y5yo1_500.jpg


"RRRRUUUHHHH???"
"Tim, he seems to be saying that SIG is bringing out model after model - for example, all the various finishes on the P238 - without making sure the first ones work!" I can attest to that with my egregious 1911. :rolleyes:
 
Good question. Why would the suggestion to use a local plastic manufacturer, which I had down the street from my house, to produce upgraded sights for the P-11 get me banned from BOTH Keltec boards? You have to be careful about offending the sensibilities of the boards fanboys.
 
"When these were made in Germany they didn't have these problems."

Because American CEO's are out to please investors, and German CEO's care more about pleasing customers. One usually follows the other, but it nevertheless creates an environment for cutting corners.

Case in point is the Sig P250, the greatest of Cohen's turds.
 
"“Another challenge for us is figuring out how to manage this growth,” he continues. “In terms of brand, we are considered the Mercedes-Benz of the firearms industry, but how do you grow Mercedes to be four times bigger while not losing your edge of being the quality leader? How do you grow without losing those parts of you? That’s tough. That’s a challenge for us." Ron Cohen, CEO

He even uses an automobile analogy.

I do not think he has succeeded in not losing the edge. The edge, IMO, is still sharp, but not what it is expected to be.

Ricardo Semler, from Semco, is an excellent example of a unique leadership style. There are interviews with him on Youtube.

Mr. Cohen references his military service so I think that defines much of his approach. Not saying it is good or bad, just an observation.
 
I posted this to the SigForum as well and they deleted it and suspended my account.

What is wrong with the post that they would do this? That is strange.

The Sig Forum is run by Mike Packwood who is a control freak and he has a very tight relationship with the management at Sig. He will only tolerate so much questioning of Sig as a company and he does not tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. He ran the S&W forum into the ground.

I used to post over there but no more. He censors anyone who disagrees with him. In the end its not worth it. Having to conform to his vision of Sig is too high a price for membership. IMHO
 
"“Another challenge for us is figuring out how to manage this growth,” he continues. “In terms of brand, we are considered the Mercedes-Benz of the firearms industry, but how do you grow Mercedes to be four times bigger while not losing your edge of being the quality leader? How do you grow without losing those parts of you? That’s tough. That’s a challenge for us." Ron Cohen, CEO

He really should check the recent JD power and Consumer reports data on MB. They are nowhere near the top for initial quality or long term quality in the car industry. It has been a long time since MB was a quality leader.

IMHO Cohen is not stepping up to the challenge he is putting profits and number of models and variations over quality.
 
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Good post.

Lengthy but interesting. I have found that one can usually look at the personality of the CEO and other senior management and see it reflected strongly in the product.

For example, when you look at Gaston Glock, you see a man obsessed with perfection (believe me it's not just a slogan). An engineer and designer FIRST. Then a businessman. An extremely OCD one. You talk about "go and see", this guy defines it.

Granted, he probably isn't the kind of guy you'd want to work under or have a beer with, but he's definately the guy you'd want to buy a gun from.

I think the management at SIG Sauer better find their inner Glock real soon. The internet has not been kind to them of late and SIG's reputation as a superior handgun has been deservedly tarnished. Hopefully they will find a new enthusiasm for their product and get in this thing for the long haul, not just skate by on a strong gun market.
 
I've worked for a couple of companies in the past whose CEO decided that the secret to boosting the stock price was to pursue Japanese management efficiency philosophies at all costs. The problem is, when the focus is purely on eliminating inefficiency you not only accept but encourage compromising the product in the name of efficiency. The CEO and all the top managers have to be focused on making the kind of product their customers demand and deserve FIRST, then concentrate on making those products as efficiently as possible. One thing I've learned is that as a manager you have to be very careful how you measure your employees because they will concentrate on what you measure. If all your metrics are related to increasing efficiency and reducing costs and none of them are on making better and more innovative products then you join the race to the bottom. That's a race no one wins, long term.
 
The topic just got shut down on the Firing Line as well.

I have participated in the development of software that is top tier, with hundreds of thousands of users. The current product is a little more niche/specific and has tens of thousands of users.

These users instantly complain about bugs, lack of features, and cosmetic things such as button colors, very quickly on the users groups, forums, and Amazon.

It is the modern world. Feed back is quick. While the users rarely guess the real underlying problem they are always right that there is a problem. So, since I am not at Sig I am fairly sure that my guess about what is causing quality issues is wrong, but I bet I am right that there is a problem.

Now am I saying the problem is such that you shouldn't buy a Sig? No. Absolutely not. But I see a trend and a path that doesn't look right to me. Would I say don't buy a P238 HD manufactured in May 2010. Yes, I would say don't buy it. I would not generalize and say don't buy any P238 or any Sig. Maybe people think I am saying that or implying that.

My 556 has met my expectations so far and I recommend it still.
 
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If Keltec learns how to add a quality finish and refinement to their products i could see their innovations pushing Sig off the road.
I know that sounds dumb, But If Keltec was given the German touch they would have some amazing products that would appeal to many more people than those who like Sig now.

But "What-if's?" are dreams not reality.
But I love Keltecs ability to push the envelope and do it so its the lower income people who can enjoy them now, But id like to see that push to the higher end in guns the "Mass's" want.
 
Thank you to The High Road for letting this discussion stand. The SigForum banned me and the Firing Line stopped it quick.

I meant what I said about my intention.

I am not saying don't buy Sig. Sig was quick to respond and that is good.

For me, when I buy something for a well defined purpose, and then it doesn't fulfill that purpose, I am at a loss because my purpose still needs filling.

I have burned enough bridges with Sig today, so I am done. I will leave it alone.

Sincerely,

SirGilligan
 
Interesting, and not a bad analogy at all.

However let me play devil's advocate a little bit. Just a touch.

I have three Sig's: A P6, a SP 2022, and a P238.

Lets compare the German made P6 with the SP2022. DA/SA, 9mm, similar size, both designed for police. In just about every aspect the 2022 is a better pistol. It's got a nicer trigger, holds more rounds, is lighter, feels better in the hand, and is user adjustable on the grip end. Now I would hope so, as the 2022 is a 20 year newer design, but still. There's one "new" Sig that's better then the old.

Now let's look at the 238. Oh God. I almost didn't get one after reading SigForum. It's an unreliable POS that is still undergoing beta testing, right. Except mine works great. And so do the other 3 whose owners I know. And it is hands down the best shooting pocket .380 on the market today. Hell the 238 is so popular, even Colt noticed. I personally detest the colors that I see in the SHOT pictures, but there are plenty of firearms that I detest, and still sell.

Let's also mention the P250. I don't like it. It's the epitome of the New Sig's failure. It's got the worlds longest trigger, and feels weird in the hand. But then my mom bought one and said something that really struck me. She compared it with a Glock and an XDM, because, you know, it's a $500 polymer 9mm, so that's where it competes. And does pretty well there, as I understand it.

So what, exactly, has Sig lost?

I confess I'm new to Sigs, so I don't remember the heyday of fine German craftsmanship, but those $1000 P series Sig's still exist. I have found that many Sig fans hold up their new, $500 P250, and compare it to their $1200 P229 Elite and say "the new Sig's are crap".

Add in to this the internet's unique ability to create fanboy's with religious fervor, and I have to wonder just what "flavor" is actually gone. If you like a 9 with sauerkraut flavor, go buy a P226. It comes with a free Exeter schnitzel. Otherwise enjoy the slightly different flavor of Sig's more affordable, new options.




*
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And in all cases, stay away from their 1911's. An external extractor? Bah! Sacrilege! :D
 
I bought into that whole heyday of German craftsmanship thing when I bought my first Sig.

I should have read up on the 9mm X-5 extraction issues before I bought one, but I saw the gun at a gun show and liked it and it was made in Germany. How do you screw up a proven design like the 226? That's what mine says on the slide - 226S.

At least I only bought the cheap X-5. $1399.

Fool me once, etc.

John


"The X-5 extractor problem is well documented and due to an obviously marginal design.
Sad to say, but it almost seems that X-5 extraction issues are inevitable, some guns develop them later than others but almost all of them do eventually."

_________________________________________________________________
GrayGuns Inc.
Phone: 541-468-3840
Email: [email protected]
 
dogmush,

There are several flaws in you post.

#1 Both the P225 and the SP2022 are German designs: The P225/P6 and the SP2022 were both designed and originally produced in Germany. The SP2022 is currently being produced in Exter. If you break Exter one open and compare it to a German triple proofed gun the fit/finish on the pistols is not the same. IMHO the Exter ones are too tight and are abrasive due to the Nitron finish and are more prone to break in issues. They also exhibit a lot less hand finishing time on the slide & frame. This speaks directly to the OPs point. IMHO.

The changes to the gun where done to accommodate production here. I own a German SP2022 with triple serial numbers black box etc.... and it is a superior weapon to the ones being produced currently in Exter. Cohen & the US Sig management group cheapened the US produced SP2022 by using more MIM parts, Nitron finish and an external extractor. The German ones where iffalon which cannot be used here in the USA. There have not been many reports of bad Exter SP2022s. There was a batch IIRC about 200 guns sent to CA which had feeding problems. Something to do with the ramp and they would not feed hollow points. I believe this was corrected on a pistol by pistol basis.

#2 Opinions and preferences are not facts: You state that it is better but every single criteria you then present is a subjective criteria. The only objective facts you state are that the SP2022 has higher capacity and that it has interchangeable back straps. These two objective facts in and of themselves are meaningless unless you prefer greater capacity and the P225 does not fit you. On a subjective level the P225 fits me better than any of the Sig Pro grips. I have all 3. LOL

#3 Your personal experience with a pistol does not equal fact: The facts are that the P238 is a hit or miss design. Colt back in the day took a reliable 380 auto design and shrank it to the brink of failure. They were not 100% reliable pistols when Colt made them. Sig bought the rights to produce a Sig version cheapened it and introduced 15 models, all which are the same gun, at a $400 price point. That gun was engineered, designed and produced to meet a price point. Sig wanted a gun in the sub $400 380 auto market period and they got exactly want they wanted. IMHO this is where the P238 sits. It is not just my opinion. You can go to any gun forum and you will find that the ratio is almost 1 to 2 for bad pistols to good. That is not acceptable IMHO. The leading Sig gunsmith in the US, who is directly affiliated with Sig, and rarely states anything negative about Sig products, will not work on them because he cannot guarantee results. That is damming.

To bring back in a car analogy I own a Mercedes Benz 560 SEC. Which was built in 1990. It was the last production MB that was made, designed and built before they put a price tag on it. Once the engineers where done making the car they wanted to make they put a sticker on it. IIRC in 1990 that was $85,000.00. Every production MB after that was engineered, designed and produced to meet a price point. Management told the engineers we need a S class with a XXXHP V8, 4 doors, ABS, traction control, XXX Cubic feet interior etc.... for $70,000. They made the car to fit the price point which necessitated compromises in design. They did this to compete in a new luxury auto market which now had players from Japan. MB IMHO has never been the same. A perfect recent example is what VW has done to the Jetta in order to price it at $15,999. They have cheapened it to the point where the things you want from a VW have been stripped away to meet a price point. PS the pic is not my actual MB but mine is in equal if not better condition. Still a daily driver after 21 years on the road. :)

IMG_0686.jpg


#4 The P250 is a failure IMHO: They did not get enough calibers, parts or fire modules out to live up to the hype. The reason is that they could not get the original P250 9mm to run reliability. The issues ranged form FTF, FTE, round s not fitting into the mag etc... The guns was sold at over $650 when it came out. They are now selling the updated version for under $425 in most shops. They had to cut it to the bone just to move the metal. Its a failure IMHO on a grand scale. They mainly sell to people who do not know any better and think they lucked into a $400 Sig of old world quailty. Instead they are really buying a pistol which was eliminated from the recent BATF trials due to reliability issues during testing. :what:

Not to be too rude but your post shows a lack of knowledge about the history of Sig as company. When people talk about the old school W. German Sig P series pistols they are not talking about guns like the P229 Elites. The entire Elite line is a Cohen invention to help Kimberize the Sig name. :fire: When people talk about the old school Sigs people are talking about guns like:

The P220/P226/Browning BDA/P220 9mm/P225/P245/P228/P210/P230/P232/Sig 550/551/552 Rifle and the newer P239. Some will throw the P229 in there but really these are US guns. All these were plain jane guns. No beavertials, no red frames, no rainbow titanium finishes, no rails, no fancy wood grips or laser sights. Just stamped carbon steel slides on Alloy frames with plastic grips. Two models instead of 10 variations. Do you want that with or without night sights? These are the guns which built the Sig Sauer rep of German quality and reliability. If you are going to prop up a company you should at least be accurate in your representation. If you don't know your past than you don't know your future....

Seriously for all those who are Sig fans or even Sig haters look at the history of Kimber. Look at where they started with the original Clackamas guns and look at what they became by the mid to late 2000s. Guess who ran they company during that boom and bust? Ron Cohen and he is running the same playbook at Sig. :banghead: If you don't know your past than you don't know your future....
 
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These two quotes sum up my message to any manufacturer that improvement is as simple as an attitude, which in turn shows that attitude reflects leadership.

“During this time I often thought of a business parable… Three stone cutters were asked about their jobs. The first said he was paid to cut stones. The second replied that he used special techniques to shape stones in an exceptional way, and proceeded to demonstrate his skills. The third stone cutter just smiled and said: “I build cathedrals.” Ricardo Semler

"The most interesting measure may be one that the people at GE/Durham talk about themselves. They don't really think that their main job is to make jet engines. They think that their main job is to make jet engines better." From: Issue 28| October 1999 | Page 174 By: Charles Fishman Photographs by: Mary Ellen Mark

I have to go, so sorry I won't be seeing any replies. Carry on without me.
 
i have early 90s w german 220 & 228 and a late 90s 229. also a 1st gen steel 220 with their proprietary rail that nothing fits on. they all work just fine with never a hiccup. the 220 and 228 have more rounds down range than i can count, well into the several thousands. the 220 was my 1st handgun i ever bought, its never leaving.

their latest offerings are just not appealing to me so i have never pursused them. however after reading on many forums about their quality control i doubt i will be buying any soon. intersting the car analogy
 
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