Can somebody check this with Quickload?

[Mr_Flintstone]

I’ve been working on full power .32 S&W Long loads, and I have found that a great deal of data that’s out there seems to be way over 15,000 psi. I worked up a load on Gordon’s reloading tool that seems quite stout, but shows to be within SAAMI specs. The gun is a Charter Undercoverette in .32 H&R magnum with a 2” barrel and a 1.5” cylinder which I needed to add together to get a barrel length of 3.5” per Gordon’s instructions. I used a cylinder gap of .004”. I’m using Starline cases trimmed to .915” with a case capacity of 12.9 gr H2O and an 85 gr XTP seated to .22” for an overall length of 1.144”. For the load I used 7.7 gr IMR 4227. Gordon’s calculates a 100% load ratio with a muzzle velocity of 820.8 fps at a pressure of 14,159 psi. Testing on my chronograph I got 817 fps with an sd of 17 fps, so at least the velocity prediction is right on the money.

If someone who has Quickload has a little spare time, would you run these numbers to see what it predicts for velocity and pressure? I plan to break down and buy Quickload for Christmas, but I’d really like to know how Gordon’s predictions jive with Quickload.

 

[uuolf]

I like GRT... I usually have to tweak to the velocity... Not by much though... Just when I'm pushing the envelope... Which I shouldn't be doing anyway right

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

This is a really inefficient load, but for all the powders I have on hand, it gave the best velocity without exceeding max pressure (supposedly). I tested it against Bullseye, Titegroup, 231, Unique, AutoComp, and 2400, and 4227 was about 75 fps faster than the closest other one.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

This is a really inefficient load

Yeah it is but is just so dang much fun.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Especially when you have one of these to shoot it out of.

The bottom one is a Smith 1947 32 S&W long, 5 screw in an I-frame.
Honestly, for some reason, it's one of my favorite Smiths.

 

[Soonerpesek]

@P Flados ...................................you are needed here...................

 

[P Flados]

I plugged in the usual inputs and noted that your case capacity is much lower than the Quickload default, 14.8 grs H2O.

With your stated case capacity, QL predicts 840 fps at 14680 psi. QL does not include any provision for cylinder gap, I typically subtract 50 FPS.

For your desired 15000 psi, QL says that some of your other powders should be better. Given this is for a H&R 32 mag gun, using the 15,000 psi predicted loads below should be very safe. However, I recommend using 32 H&R brass for "routine use" loads where you want more velocity than "typical" 32 S&W Long power levels.

Cartridge          : .32 S&W Long Wad Cut.
Bullet             : .312, 85, Hornady HP/XTP 32050
Useable Case Capaci: 8.666 grain H2O = 0.563 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.144 inch = 29.06 mm
Barrel Length      : 3.5 inch = 88.9 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant POWER PISTOL                66.6      4.2     0.27     909    66.6    15000    5467   0.523
Alliant 2400                        87.5      6.6     0.43     909    46.7    15000    5474   0.515
Alliant HERCO                       75.8      3.8     0.25     904    81.8    15000    5425   0.543
Alliant UNIQUE                      66.3      3.4     0.22     903    86.1    15000    5302   0.534
Alliant BULLSEYE                    55.8      3.0     0.19     897    87.4    15000    4997   0.521
Alliant BLUE DOT                    85.5      5.6     0.36     896    55.2    15000    5309   0.527
Hodgdon Longshot                    52.3      4.2     0.27     894    76.4    15000    5095   0.522
Hodgdon H110                       101.5      8.7     0.56     893    37.5    15000    5293   0.512
Hodgdon Universal                   60.1      3.1     0.20     891    94.3    15000    4978   0.544
Hodgdon HS-6                        54.9      4.3     0.28     891    73.8    15000    5058   0.521
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                    101.4      8.4     0.55     878    36.0    15000    4898   0.512
Hodgdon HP38                        44.4      3.0     0.19     876    95.9    15000    4463   0.529
Alliant GREEN DOT                   60.2      2.7     0.17     872    98.7    15000    4419   0.549
Alliant RED DOT                     59.6      2.4     0.15     861   100.0    15000    4030   0.546
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   40.0      2.6     0.17     859    99.7    15000    4002   0.539
Hodgdon H4227                      105.0      7.7     0.50     810    30.6    13547    3724   0.541
Hodgdon Clays                       50.9      1.9     0.13     805   100.0    15000    2978   0.541

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I plugged in the usual inputs and noted that your case capacity is much lower than the Quickload default, 14.8 grs H2O.

With your stated case capacity, QL predicts 840 fps at 14680 psi. QL does not include any provision for cylinder gap, I typically subtract 50 FPS.

For your desired 15000 psi, QL says that some of your other powders should be better. Given this is for a H&R 32 mag gun, using the 15,000 psi predicted loads below should be very safe. However, I recommend using 32 H&R brass for "routine use" loads where you want more velocity than "typical" 32 S&W Long power levels.

Cartridge          : .32 S&W Long Wad Cut.
Bullet             : .312, 85, Hornady HP/XTP 32050
Useable Case Capaci: 8.666 grain H2O = 0.563 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.144 inch = 29.06 mm
Barrel Length      : 3.5 inch = 88.9 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant POWER PISTOL                66.6      4.2     0.27     909    66.6    15000    5467   0.523
Alliant 2400                        87.5      6.6     0.43     909    46.7    15000    5474   0.515
Alliant HERCO                       75.8      3.8     0.25     904    81.8    15000    5425   0.543
Alliant UNIQUE                      66.3      3.4     0.22     903    86.1    15000    5302   0.534
Alliant BULLSEYE                    55.8      3.0     0.19     897    87.4    15000    4997   0.521
Alliant BLUE DOT                    85.5      5.6     0.36     896    55.2    15000    5309   0.527
Hodgdon Longshot                    52.3      4.2     0.27     894    76.4    15000    5095   0.522
Hodgdon H110                       101.5      8.7     0.56     893    37.5    15000    5293   0.512
Hodgdon Universal                   60.1      3.1     0.20     891    94.3    15000    4978   0.544
Hodgdon HS-6                        54.9      4.3     0.28     891    73.8    15000    5058   0.521
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                    101.4      8.4     0.55     878    36.0    15000    4898   0.512
Hodgdon HP38                        44.4      3.0     0.19     876    95.9    15000    4463   0.529
Alliant GREEN DOT                   60.2      2.7     0.17     872    98.7    15000    4419   0.549
Alliant RED DOT                     59.6      2.4     0.15     861   100.0    15000    4030   0.546
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   40.0      2.6     0.17     859    99.7    15000    4002   0.539
Hodgdon H4227                      105.0      7.7     0.50     810    30.6    13547    3724   0.541
Hodgdon Clays                       50.9      1.9     0.13     805   100.0    15000    2978   0.541

Thanks. Those predictions are pretty close to what I got. I think Gordon’s actually defaulted to 14,504 PSI, which could partially account for the slightly higher charges you got on Quickload. I’m gonna check that case volume again to see if it was actually 12.9 gr. A mistake measuring on a small case can cause you to be way off. I’ll probably average multiple cases rather than measure just one.

One thing of note. The prediction on Gordon’s had 2400 the fastest of my powders; with the same charge as yours, it calculated 908 fps. In actual testing though, the fastest round with 2400 was slower than the slowest round of 4227. I was literally scraping the bottom of the jug of 2400 though, with maybe a tablespoon left. I have a fresh, unopened jug that I may test again with. There could have possibly been some contaminants at the bottom of the jug that slowed the rounds a bit. We’ll see what happens.

I was also surprised by the Unique. It was by far the fastest of my testing with 95 gr cast, but only performed around the middle of the pack here. I think that another round of testing may be in order with closer attention to my measurements.

 

[P Flados]

In my 4.2" SP-101 327 loads, pretty much all loads were a good bit slower than expected. And this is in comparison to both published loads and Quickload results.

Revolvers are well known for having "quirks" where people have noted that two essentially the same guns give different velocities. Or a shorter gun does just as well as or better than a longer gun.

I came to the conclusion that my Ruger was just a "slow gun".

Your gun may be generally shooting slower than expected, but your 4227 is a "fast load" that is compensating. The fast load could be a batch of powder that has a faster burn rate than normal, or it could be something else (like the different shape of the pressure curve from a slower powder). Note also that you mentioned 100% fill for your load where Quickload say it is 105%. Tweaking your case capacity in the software to get actual fill percentage with your powder will probably give better results than just relying on a water check of case capacity.

The above also makes me think of a weird thing I have noted. Quickload produces substantially different performance with IMR 4227 vs H4227. For the 7.7 gr charge, IMR gives 839 fps at 14570 psi and H4227 gives 813 fps 13664 psi.

Again, for your use this should be more of a curiosity than a "big deal". If a Unique, Bullseye or Titegroup load shoots a little slower when you are using S&W long brass, so what? If you plan to load for "serious use", you are much better off with 32 H&H brass even if you only go charges somewhere between Long and H&R published maximums based on desired recoil. For example, if you use H&R cases, Unique powder and just load for a desired velocity between 850 fps and 900 fps, you should get there with less than the 4.1 grs maximum specified in:

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...ata/Alliant Powder Reloaders Guide - 2005.pdf.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

In my 4.2" SP-101 327 loads, pretty much all loads were a good bit slower than expected. And this is in comparison to both published loads and Quickload results.

Revolvers are well known for having "quirks" where people have noted that two essentially the same guns give different velocities. Or a shorter gun does just as well as or better than a longer gun.

I came to the conclusion that my Ruger was just a "slow gun".

Your gun may be generally shooting slower than expected, but your 4227 is a "fast load" that is compensating. The fast load could be a batch of powder that has a faster burn rate than normal, or it could be something else (like the different shape of the pressure curve from a slower powder). Note also that you mentioned 100% fill for your load where Quickload say it is 105%. Tweaking your case capacity in the software to get actual fill percentage with your powder will probably give better results than just relying on a water check of case capacity.

The above also makes me think of a weird thing I have noted. Quickload produces substantially different performance with IMR 4227 vs H4227. For the 7.7 gr charge, IMR gives 839 fps at 14570 psi and H4227 gives 813 fps 13664 psi.

Again, for your use this should be more of a curiosity than a "big deal". If a Unique, Bullseye or Titegroup load shoots a little slower when you are using S&W long brass, so what? If you plan to load for "serious use", you are much better off with 32 H&H brass even if you only go charges somewhere between Long and H&R published maximums based on desired recoil. For example, if you use H&R cases, Unique powder and just load for a desired velocity between 850 fps and 900 fps, you should get there with less than the 4.1 grs maximum specified in:

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor Supplied Load Data/Alliant Powder Reloaders Guide - 2005.pdf.

You are correct about the curiosity part. I try to build my knowledge and understanding by modeling and experimenting on lower pressure loads in higher pressure guns. I do the same with 38 special in 357 magnum revolvers.

I can follow a recipe from a book just fine, but sometimes a powder and/or bullet combination just isn’t available anywhere. That’s why I really like software like Gordon’s and hopefully soon Quickload. If I can gain enough skill at using these, hopefully I can put them to use with some of my less than popular calibers that data is hard to find.

Again, thanks. You have been very helpful.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm wondering why you want to buy QuickLoad when you know how to use Gordon's software?

Besides, QL is a GRT hack so why not just use the original? (although database upgrades are not possible right now since Gordon passed away in January taking the access code with him)

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I'm wondering why you want to buy QuickLoad when you know how to use Gordon's software?

Besides, QL is a GRT hack so why not just use the original? (although database upgrades are not possible right now since Gordon passed away in January taking the access code with him)

Quickload has a bigger powder and bullet database. I can measure and put bullets in Gordon’s, but not powders.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Quickload has a bigger powder and bullet database. I can measure and put bullets in Gordon’s, but not powders.

I didn't know that, thank you. Makes perfect sense then...

In reality I wasn't getting on you, I was asking the OP why he was going to buy QL since he seemed to have a good handle on GRT lol... Sometimes some loaders have trouble getting Gordon's working.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I didn't know that, thank you. Makes perfect sense then...

In reality I wasn't getting on you, I was asking the OP why he was going to buy QL since he seemed to have a good handle on GRT lol... Sometimes some loaders have trouble getting Gordon's working.

GRT, even though it has documentation, is something of a self discovery process. Factory defaults will get you close, but careful measurements of everything and entering of optional values that are turned off by default are required to get really good results. I’ve been using it almost two years, and still almost every time I use it, I find something new.