Can The RTKBA be taxed? Other rights can't be.

[Owen Sparks]

Many states charge a fee or tax when they issue a concealed carry permit and some require that applicants take and pay for a safety course. This cost keeps some people from obtaining a permit.

Several Southern states used to charge a poll tax on voting. The sole purpose of these taxes was to make it too expensive for poor Blacks and other undesirables to exercise the right to vote.
The Twenty-fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution ended the poll tax on grounds that the states had placed a tax on exercising a right and that rights can't be taxed.

If rights can not be taxed, how can a states tax place a tax on exercising the constitutionally enumerated right to keep and bear arms?

Is the 24th Amendment not grounds to challenge these CCW fees in court?

 

[zhyla]

I don't think it's black and white. Any fee that is perceived by the courts as prohibitively expensive will likely be struck down (eventually). Just as an example, currently if you buy a gun in a state with a sales tax you paid a tax on that gun. It's unlikely for a court to rule that guns must be tax exempt purchases. But if your state levies a 25% tax on firearm purchases they probably have some court time in their future.

 

[Zoogster]

The latest Supreme Court interpretation has yet to consider carrying a firearm a right. If it's not a right then they can charge for a license to do it.

Currently owning them and keeping them at home for defense are considered rights through incorporation of the Heller decision in the Chicago decision.

The complete right has yet to be fully defined, and both the antis and pro gun groups will define the exact meaning of various terminology in the Heller decision for some time yet to come in various court decisions.
As of the Heller decision they cannot outright ban firearms. They cannot force people to keep them disassembled or unloaded or locked up in their home.
There is additional rights beyond that in Heller, but most have enough room for challenges from both sides and as a result the courts will determine the complete extent in various decisions for quite some time.

A tax or fee to obtain a permit to keep one at home (like for a gun permit) though could most certainly be challenged at this time.
A literary test to vote (as used to keep the uneducated and various blacks from voting) was also struck down as unconstitutional, yet someone has to be able to read to properly vote.
Struck down with the same logic that since voting is a right... So clearly various qualifications for just firearm ownership would also be subject to similar challenges under that case law.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Why can't we use the same argument they used against taxing the "right to vote" against taxing the right to keep and bear arms? Besides, the Constitution makes no exceptions that suspends the 2A for "concealed" arms.

 

[VegasAR15]

There are many things that I consider to be taxes in association with the 2nd ammendment; fees for CCW, $25 brady check, $200 for the right to own a firearm or accessory that the government considers extra evil. I think an argument could even be made to get rid of sales tax on firearms. I know at least my state does not charge sales tax on groceries, because food is essential to life. I consider self defense essential to my life.

 

[nyresq]

the cost for a permint for any handgun in the county where I live is close to $400. And thats just for a permint that allows you to have it in your home and carry it back and forth to the range. There is no such thing as an "unrestricted carry" permit in my area, and I am on long island, not NYC... Last time I checked, the permit fees for NYC were more then $500 by the time you finished with everything...

 

[oneounceload]

This cost keeps some people from obtaining a permit.

If that truly prevents someone from obtaining a permit, then they may need to rethink their lifestyle choices.

There is already an 11% VAT on sporting goods, plus sales taxes in those states that have them. Here, even the newspaper has sales tax applied - does that prevent me from my 1A rights? No......

Someone has to pay for all those Federal jobs this stimulus created.......

 

[geekWithA.45]

I think eventually, the courts will line up behind the principle that you cannot tax the instrumentality of a fundamental right.

There's good precedent for this in the cases of printer's ink and paper, bibles, etc.

YMMV by jurisdiction.

 

[nyresq]

If that truly prevents someone from obtaining a permit, then they may need to rethink their lifestyle choices.

This coming from a guy who lives where a permit cost less then dinner and a movie...

Try living someplace where the permit cost more then the pistol you want to buy... oh yea, plus the $15 for the purchase document for each handgun you want to place on that permit. I am praying by the time I retire from Law Enforcement the fees have dissapeared or half my retirement may be spent on my permit... It may be cheaper to move and buy a second home to register all my guns in another state...

 

[oneounceload]

My dad was NYPD - he didn't need a permit when he retired. A few years later they moved to SC.....you will like Florida - no snow.......

 

[nyresq]

the PD's around here issue their own guys retired permits for free... Unfortunatly, they charge retired Feds for the permits, same permit, but they charge for it....

And I like the snow!!! Hate the humidity, who wants to live in a swamp?? But PA is looking better and better every year...

 

[COMPNOR]

I consider self defense essential to my life.

Show me where it says I can't defend myself unless I pay? Or that if I don't own a gun I can't defend myself. Contrary to popular belief, there are other ways to defend yourself than with a gun.

I will concede that a firearm may be the ultimate form of self-defense, but it is not the only one.

 

[Dokkalfar]

The right to keep an bear arms, like speech, does not depend on one specific product. A c'ompany selling a product, whether it is used for the exercising of the first Amendment, the Second, or none at all, still should fall under the sales tax (ignoring tax-free essentials here). The sale of a product from a manufacturer to a purchaser goes under a sales tax.
For states that have the tax-free status for essentials to life, the waters become a bit more murky as to what should be tax free (candy isn't, or prepared foods.) Personally, I don't think a sales tax should be applied unevenly. Either a flat tax (nationally. states/cities have their own thing added on) or don't tax anything.

However, exercising that right is entirely different. CHLs shouldn't cost anything aside from the classes, which I think should be optional. A slip of paper being required to exercise a right, which happens to come with a giant tax, IS discriminating against certain people. "Lifestyle choices" has nothing to do with it. I'm a college student working 20-30hrs a week. I still have trouble affording a firearm, much less a CHL. (And I actually do get state fees waived, hurrah for CAC ) But even the $100 or so for the class is expensive. Thats 3-4 tanks of gas (1k miles), 2-3 weeks of dinner, etc. For some people, $240 dollars (~average cost in TX) is a LOT of money. Especially when added to the several hundred for the firearms in the first place.

Basically, the CHL fees would be equivalent to the poll tax. Your sales tax would be like the gas required to get to the polls.

Or, thats what I like to believe

 

[52grain]

I'm not a constitutional scholar, but the 24th amendment only mentions the right to vote, so I don't think that it would apply to the right to keep and bear arms.

If you get charged with virtually any crime, you are going to pay some fairly stiff court costs even if you're found not guilty. I suppose that they could be considered a tax on your right to due process.

No fees should ever be excessive. If a fee is charged it should be equal to the cost of reasonable regulation of the activity involved (in this case a concealed carry permit it should cover the cost of a background check and an educational course with range time, nothing more, nothing less.) People who are honestly not able to pay, should be able to apply for an exemption, provided that they aren't otherwise disqualified.

 

[simulatedjim]

Good argument for National Carry.

 

[Frank Ettin]

We'll just have to see what the courts say if the question comes up. In the meantime, the permit laws will be applied, unless they get repealed.

If anyone doesn't want to wait around for someone else to bring the issue to the courts, he's welcome to do it himself. It just takes a whole bunch of money.

 

[zhyla]

If that truly prevents someone from obtaining a permit, then they may need to rethink their lifestyle choices.

That's easy to say when you're living above the poverty line like every single person on this forum. For a single mom with a low-skill job who wants to carry a little revolver in her purse just in case, just coming up with a couple hundred for the gun is a major investment. It's good to remember the poor people are the same ones that have been screwed the most by some gun control laws (saturday night specials, etc).

In my area a CCW permit costs about $300/3 years + another $250-ish for required training classes. That's prohibitive to a lot of people. It's another ~$300/yr to get into the good old boys to actually be approved for the permit, but that's another thread .

 

[WeedWacker]

CCW permits are not considered a tax on the RKBA. A tax on the RKBA would be government charging you per firearm per year for some sort of maintenance purpose such as, oh, Government Health care? CCW is prohibited without a permit in most states but the government doesn't usually require you to pay every year. None of the states I have lived in have anyway. Not sure how that would apply to an FOID card where you register each firearm.


ETA:
Here's a thought: if you need to pay a renewal fee for each firearm every year, would that could be considered a tax on the Heller definition of a personal RKBA and the McDonald state incorporation? Such as if you had the FOID card in Illinois and were charged each year for the firearms you already purchased and paid a tax on.

 

[VegasAR15]

Show me where it says I can't defend myself unless I pay? Or that if I don't own a gun I can't defend myself. Contrary to popular belief, there are other ways to defend yourself than with a gun.

Make sure you let us know how it turns out when you bring a knife or your fists to a gun fight. Maybe its just me, but a gun may be necessary for a 105 pound woman to defend herself from a 250 pound rapist. Maybe I'm wrong.

Good argument for National Carry.

+1

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

$200 for the right to own a firearm or accessory that the government considers extra evil.

I was under the impression they feds wanted to ban NFA firearms originally but knew that would be a direct violation to the 2A and struck down, so instead they taxed the bejeezus out of it via commerce laws so only the wealthy could own them.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I was under the impression they feds wanted to ban NFA firearms originally but knew that would be a direct violation to the 2A and struck down, so instead they taxed the bejeezus out of it via commerce laws so only the wealthy could own them.

'34 NFA was implemented as a tax scheme for the purpose of claiming jurisdiction, and therefore regulatory oversight, over firearms at all.

In 1934, the premise that the interstate commerce clause could be abused to provide that source of federal power had not yet been invented, that would come along in 1941.

I expect that in light of Heller & McDonald that eventually, the '34 NFA will not survive.

 

[COMPNOR]

Make sure you let us know how it turns out when you bring a knife or your fists to a gun fight. Maybe its just me, but a gun may be necessary for a 105 pound woman to defend herself from a 250 pound rapist. Maybe I'm wrong.

So if you aren't carrying you're just go to accept the consequences? If I'm going to resist, I'm going to resist. The only thing a gun is going to do is change my strategy. Lacking one does not mean I cannot defend myself.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Could your state require you to by a "Free Speech" license every year before you are allowed to post an opinion on forums like this?

How about a concealed carry permit for a Bible or newspaper?

Or about a permit to peacably assemble?

Or a worship license before you can attend church?

Of course not, that would be unconstitutional.
How then can they license and restrict the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...How then can they license and restrict the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms?

Nonetheless, they are doing it. And no doubt they will continue to do it unless a court tells them they can't or unless enough voters force their legislatures to change the law.

 

[dvcrsn]

I have a suspicion that say $20 for a 5 year shall issue CCW will probably pass muster, but $100+ a year probably won't