Can there be a middle ground on this subject?

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It is a Sunday, isn't it?

Vector said:
Furthermore, while "gun grabbers" will use anything that favors their position to promote their agenda, it does not mean that everything they say is without merit.

I give them no credence whatsoever, because they have one aim, and one aim alone: to circumvent the original intentions of the framers of the Constitution, separating me and my brethren from the recognition of the God-given right to self defense that was given by wise men and codified as the Second Amendment to our Constitution.

Frankly, they're like snakes in Southeast Asia.
 
Vector said:
Can there be a middle ground on this subject?
Of course there's a middle ground. We've been living there since before I was born. In this middle ground, guns cannot be bought and carried just as easily as books. That's why too many of my friends have been raped, or robbed, or beaten.

No, I don't hang out with a rough crowd; I'm in my forties and I've known quite a few people. Do they have the right to their own lives? Should they?

Would you also suggest that the right to vote should depend on proficiency?

I don't.
 
Would anyone have the effrontery to suggest that African-Americans have some obligation to seek a middle ground with the poltroons in white sheets? I see no difference in compromising with the Brady Bunch. Gun owners are no more obligated to compromise their rights as humans under the laws of nature and nature's God than are African-Americans... or anyone else. You're either a slave or a free man. There is no synthesis of the two polar opposites. Slaves are disarmed, or they wouldn't stay slaves for long. Free men are armed or they wouldn't stay free for long. Let us remember that the first gun control laws were intended to keep African-Americans quiescent in servitude. Today's gun laws are to make grovelers of us all. Free men are armed; armed men are free. The ultimate guarantor of our freedom is blue steel, not black robes.

Justice costs $400/hr. I can't afford enough of it at that rate to do any good, but I can afford a Mossberg 500 and a Steyr S9. The Govt has unlimited funds extorted from the productive sector of society to keep legions of shysters marching in lock step to steal our property, earnings, and freedom. An honest man will run out of money for shysters before the Govt will, and whoever has the resources to keep the lawyers prancing and belching the longest will prevail in the legal arena. The idea that the legal industry is somehow divinely entitled to respect is absurd. Respect can not be demanded- it must be earned, and the legal system in America has earned nothing but fear and loathing from free Americans. :mad:
 
The anti-gun crowd in this country have not, do not, and will not, ever, ever, ever, seek a middle ground.

Therefore, neither can we, ever.

Our rights are just to important to compromise by seeking a "middle ground" ever.
 
"Can there be a middle ground on this subject?"

Sure, the world is full of half right opinions!

And in demonstrationg how opened minded I can be, I acknowledge that some have half wrong opinions.

:neener:
 
Since my post was used to help jump start this thread, I felt like I should chime in. Vector, I honestly don't know what middle ground you're seeking. My post in the other thread was meant to point out that those who would deny us our rights under the Constitution have no desire to find a middle ground. They will use any excuse they can to deny citizens the right to self-defense. They always have a reason why the "Average Joe" couldn't possibly be competent with a firearm. It's always about how they'll lose their temper, have shoot-outs over parking spaces, and how blood will be flowing in the streets. The history of concealed carry shows this isn't true.

In a subsequent post, you mentioned that you have a strong history of supporting the Second Amendment through your posts here at THR. I took the opportunity to search your writings and found the following:

December 10th, 2007, 04:22 PM #35
Vector
Senior Member



Join Date: 10-02-07
Location: South Florida
Posts: 119

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vtoddball wrote:


Quote:
I think you'll find that the majority of people on this forum will agree that not only should CCW be allowed EVERYWHERE, they should especially be allowed where children and other high value targets exist.
I was referring to pro gun society in general, not those of us who take our time to post on a gun forum. I think we might be a little more hard core than the average person.
As to "EVERYWHERE", that would mean eliminating the current CCW Fl. law regarding schools, etc. I think most of the restrictions are reasonable for citizens. Almost every place CCW's are restricted, there are LEO's or armed security.
I certainly do not want to entrust that any yahoo who can buy a gun will not accidental discharge it, leave it laying around, or lose their temper and disregard the people/children around them. Lets face it, LEO's have special training and even they make mistakes. Having Joe six-pack around kids with firearms is not my idea of a safe environment for them. I am all for law abiding people owning guns, but carrying them around places like Disney, elementary schools etc. is not the same thing.

Note: I added the bold-face type to emphasis a specific section of Vector's post.

So I have to ask, what middle ground are you seeking? That law abiding citizens have the right to a gun, but only if they keep it in their house, disassembled, and with a trigger lock? And if we agree to that, do you really think the gun grabbers will be content? Or will they merely see that as a sign of momentum going their way and press for more restrictions?

Vector, for the record I don't think you're a troll. And I agree with you that staying away from the Kool-aid is a good thing. But I think that you are buying into our opponent's argument that gradually chipping away at Second Amendment rights in the name of "common sense" legislation is a good thing, and that only the government is competent enough to protect us.

I categorically reject that notion.
 
superlite27 asked

I'm wondering why you've waited a year and a half since joining to make your first post here.


I post very infrequently superlite because I enjoy learning from others a lot, and I don't have a huge ego telling me that my own opinions are particularly valuable or unique.

Occasionally though someone pokes me with a sharp stick and I shout.

Sorry for calling OP <a name>. Good manners and political correctness must take priority over telling the truth, right?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This message is brought to you by me.

You are feeding a troll.

I now return you to your regularly programmed troll feeding.
 
Vector,
Let's dissect your ramble.
I suspect I will be accused of being a wolf in sheep's clothing by starting this thread,
Probably.
but try to be reasoned with your responses. I am pro gun, just not a fanatic, so try to see the other side of the coin rather than attack the messenger.




This quote was in response to police acting negligent or even criminal with their firearms.


The hard-core "gun grabbers" would just turn that around and say, "Well, if police are that irresponsible, then ordinary citizens must be even more irresponsible.
Responding to this quote in another recently closed thread, Intrepid Dad wrote;

Excellent point. The gun grabbers are fond of saying something like "trained law enforcement only has a 40% hit rate (I forget the actual statistic) when using force under stress. If they're that low, just imagine how incompetent ordinary citizens would be with their hit rate. Clearly only law enforcement should have guns".

They completely ignore the fact that many civilians train more frequently than some law enforcement, so the conclusion drawn on hit rates is completely erroneous. Of course, it serves to promote their agenda which is why they have no problem ignoring the facts.
So, your premise is; Many civilians train more frequently than some LEOs.

It surprises me that many feel there is no middle ground on these issues. Furthermore, while "gun grabbers" will use anything that favors their position to promote their agenda, it does not mean that everything they say is without merit.
If you ignore the small fact that their whole position is treason.
While I do not purport to say LEO's are more proficient than all regular citizens,
Now the statement is; LEOs are not more proficient than civilians.
I also do not assume that most gun owning citizens train more frequently than LEO's.
Now it is; Most gun owning civilians do not train more frequently than LEOs
As a matter of fact, I'd bet on average, LEO's train more on a % basis that the average gun owner.
Now your point is; Average LEOs train more than gun owning civilians.
Many departments require range qualification once a year.
So while many gun owners who are enthusiasts hunt and target shoot often, it is not representative of the large numbers of people who own guns but rarely use them.
Now it is Many LEOs go to the range once a year, and many gun owners do not go to the range that often.
Is that a reasonable statement, or do you feel I am off base?

Which statement? You've contradicted yourself here. You've stated;

Many civilians train more frequently than some LEOs.

LEOs are not more proficient than civilians.

Most gun owning civilians do not train more frequently than LEOs

Average LEOs train more than gun owning civilians.

Many LEOs go to the range once a year, and many gun owners do not go to the range that often.

I'm not trying to turn this into a personal attack, but is it any wonder why you are getting so many garbled responses? You've actually contradicted yourself in phrasing your question. You start out by comparing LEOs against all civilians, then you narrow your pool to gun owning civilians. How do non-gun owning civilians train more frequently than LEOs? Even allowing for your meaning to compare apples to apples you state that some civilians are more proficient but most LEOs are more proficient when most departments only range qualify once a year. How does this work.

So, to inject a little sanity into the question lets reason a bit. Are there more LEOs than gun owning civilians? Certainly not. 40% of American households own guns. I am reasonably certain that 40% of American households do not contain a LEO. Even assuming we remove LEOs from the gun owning households. That means there are at least 48 million gun owners in America given a cautious estimate of 40% of 220 million total population. Let's assume there are 1% LEOs in America, 2.2 million LEOs. Let's say 10% of the LEOs are hardcore and train frequently compared to 1% of civilians. That's still 220,000 LEOs that have superior proficiency versus 480,000 civilians. The numbers just cannot add up. I'm just pulling numbers out of thin air, but I am certain you are falling prey to the availability heuristic. Since more news stories are run with LEOs involved in gun fights it appears they experience more gun use than civilians. I am willing to be research would show otherwise. The population of the country just can't allow for that discrepancy.
 
Who can hit what with a gun is a moot point. Problem is the police have to be there to save you and they won't be there when you need it. Doesn't matter how good the cop shoots when he is across town when you need him.

The thread is poor argument at best and the original poster should realize he has to take care of himself.

jj
 
As An Aside

Good manners and political correctness must take priority over telling the truth, right?
You're a guest here. We all are.

It's Oleg's house.

I don't give a rip what your politics are, but I will categorically enforce civility here.

You want to "speak the truth?" Find a way to do it that doesn't include foul language and personal attacks.

The rules for The High Road are clear and unambiguous.

Name-calling is one of the fastest ways to lose posting privileges here.

I enjoy an articulate argument as much as the next guy.

Rudeness, on the other hand, gets you the big red button.

Carry on, gentlemen.
 
I have noted from having read most of the replies that my OP might be a little confusing since more than a few posters have gone off the topic I wished to discuss. It might also be because of the 3rd post where Hardware went way off course in that direction. However several posters are on target such as 1911Tuner (post #14) who hit the subject right on the head.

So for the record this thread is about the proficiency of shooting between LEO's vs. average Joe's who own guns. It has nothing to do with who should own guns, nor whether someone should show the ability to shoot properly to be able to own one. The next time I start a thread, I will try to be a little more clear as to the question/subject I put out for discussion.
As to the one poster who decided to finally post after being here for over 1 1/2 years just for this thread, it seems likely it is an anonymous ID. They want to be able to spew rude and/or vulgar comments without fear of reprisals to their primary ID.
 
Vector:

While I do not purport to say LEO's are more proficient than all regular citizens, I also do not assume that most gun owning citizens train more frequently than LEO's. As a matter of fact, I'd bet on average, LEO's train more on a % basis that the average gun owner. Many departments require range qualification once a year.

Vector, you need to shuck your doubletalk and clear your mind of the cant that fills it.

You have no way to know what "most" gun owning citizens or "average" gun owners do. No one can know such things. You also don't know what an "average" Law Enforcement Officer is, what training such a non-existant being undergoes, or how often one must qualify or even what the qualification involves. There is no average LEO, and training and qualification requirements vary.

You might as well propose to discuss the feeding habits of "most" South Floridians who have Internet connections or the intelligence of the "average" South Floridan who is online.

Nonsense is nonsense no matter how you dress it. You've woven some theories and suppositions around a web of ignorance and callousness and are trying to masquerade it as a subject worth discussing. It isn't. All you're doing is parading your own prejudices and values.

But just to show you I'm a nice guy, I will agree that the life of any law enforcement officer is worth more than yours or any member of your family. I like making people happy.

That's the real issue and you're distorting it. I don't know if you're doing it intentionally or out of ignorance: how devious or smart is the average South Floridian today, how well are they trained to think, and how often do they have to qualify their knowledge and intelligence before being allowed to communicate with other people online? Why are they even allowed online instead of letting the professionals handle such an important matter. Turn off Internet access to any South Floridian who can't demonstrate sufficient training to use it properly and who doesn't pass a qualification test at least annually.

So why not reintroduce the poll tax and literacy tests. Voting is too important a matter to be left to the poor or ill-educated.

I wouldn't argue that your life is worth much, or perhaps anything at all. That's a matter for you to decide and it looks like you've already made that decision. I think it's your right to decide that your life is worthless and I will defend your decision against anyone who attempts to argue against it.

But you don't have the right to make that decision for me or for anyone else. You only think you have that right. But you're wrong.

When you set yourself up as someone who can discuss whether other people should have the means to defend their lives you demonstrate incredible arrogance that attempts to dehumanize others but dehumanizes you.

You might have the gall to tell a little old lady who lives alone that she should not have a firearm with which to protect her life because she doesn't train often enough for you and doesn't qualify at least annually. I don't have that kind of gall. If I did I'd change my name to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Michael Bloomberg and run for public office, or name myself "Vector" and spout such inhuman nonsense on the Internet.

You tell the paraplegic with limited mobility and living on a small income that his life isn't worth defending. Tell the single mother, the elderly couple, the young college student, the retired man, the nineteen-year-old girl in her first apartment, the guy working two jobs to support his family, the pizza delivery guy, the taxi driver, the convalescent, the person undergoing cancer treatment, the nurses rooming together to save money--tell everyone who doesn't meet your standards for training and qualification that they can't have the means to try to save their lives against overwhelming deadly force. I won't do that.

Everyone who wants to live deserves a last best chance to defend their lives. You, no matter who you are, have no right to deny that to anyone else. Who do you think you are: Sarah Brady, Carolyn McCarthy, Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Adrian Fenty, or C. Ray Nagin?

I don't respect in the smallest degree anyone who wants to deny anyone else the opportunity for a last best chance to save his life against a deadly force attack or even proposes to discuss it as a possibility.

Again, because I am one great guy, I will agree that there is a middle ground. The middle ground is that people who want to defend their lives should be allowed the means to do so and the people who don't want to defend their lives should not be forced to do so.
 
Well, if we were allowed to carry 6" barrel shotguns, we'd hit a lot more, wouldn't we?

Regardless of whether LEOs get more hits, we still get to blame gun control. No smiley here. You're seriously among people who don't see a logical reason why 6" shotguns should be illegal.

The hit-ratio middle ground idea isn't going to find any friends around here, because it's a point that isn't worth making. That is what I read in Hardware's post: he was simply the first to point out that the only reason it could possibly matter is as a reason to take guns away.
 
post #37

Hardware wrote;

So, your premise is; Many civilians train more frequently than some LEOs.

No, you have misquoted me. In response to the following comment another poster said the part in bold, not I. I just cut & pasted it for the example I was trying to use to discuss the issue.

They completely ignore the fact that many civilians train more frequently than some law enforcement, so the conclusion drawn on hit rates is completely erroneous. Of course, it serves to promote their agenda which is why they have no problem ignoring the facts.

So to be clear, the above comment in bold was from another poster, not me. I actually believe the opposite, at least on a % basis between LEO's and the average Joe who owns a gun.
 
I certainly do not want to entrust that any yahoo who can buy a gun will not accidental discharge it, leave it laying around, or lose their temper and disregard the people/children around them. Lets face it, LEO's have special training and even they make mistakes. Having Joe six-pack around kids with firearms is not my idea of a safe environment for them. I am all for law abiding people owning guns, but carrying them around places like Disney, elementary schools etc. is not the same thing.
I know what you mean, I certainly wouldn't want to entrust any old yahoo with the right to join any old religion, they might become a Spaghetti Monster worshiper or join the Church of the Sub-Genious, or sacrifice their children to Ba'al (yet another reason why children should be raised by the state, and not these commoner breeders out there).

And I wouldn't want to entrust any old yahoo with the right to vote, God only knows what idiots they'll vote for, I'm surprised Brittney Spears isn't in the White House.


The core problem in your thinking is that of elitism ... the notion that the common man can't be trusted.


There is no middle ground between liberty and tyranny ... either the people are free, or they are not.
 
I agree with Hardware and there is no middle ground. It's about personal responsibility and it behooves the responsible gun owner to know and practice the rules of firearms safety.

BTW, what Vector mentions about careless gun handling is something (now) discredited Michael Bellesiles (late of Emory University and now teaching high school in England) tried to assert in his book. He cited that numerous firearms accidents proved unfamiliarity with firearms. Well, in virtually every single Federal sharp shooter unit raised in the Civil War, you've a collection of experienced shooters and someone invariably has an accident. What he failed to realize is that the knowledge of guns and shooting skills is not assurances of safe gun handling.
 
OP You called my ID an 'anonymous ID' and not my primary ID.

It definitely isn't, and any moderator can verify this. I just post very little because I learn with my eyes and ears and not with my mouth (fingers, posts).

I will not use any language forbidden by board policies.

I stand by everything I have said about you OP. You admit you aren't looking for truth in a post #16 "Looking for truth or wisdom? LOL"

So what is left is entertainment. And stirring the pot for same.

You can only have expected the results you got with that question in this forum.

GO on OP, stir up some entertainment.
 
Hi Vector,

It surprises me that many feel there is no middle ground on these issues.

There is a middle ground to any difference of opinion called by various names. The most popular is from WWI - no man's land. And no, you are not off base per se. Unfortunately you sound far too much like a peacemaker. Blessed be the peacemaker for they are bound to get shot in the crossfire.

Selena
 
I think it was here on THR where "middle ground" or "compromise" on this issue was compared to me having twenty dollars and you having zero dollars. You then ask if there is any middle ground between your nothing and my something.

There isn't.
 
islw2863 said:
Sorry for calling OP <a name>. Good manners and political correctness must take priority over telling the truth, right?
I don't know about "political correctness," but the name of this forum IS "The High Road." Is it so difficult to comprehend that name calling is a rather low-road substitute for refuting a specious argument with facts and/or logic?

I suppose I'm hopelessly old-fashioned, but to me NOT calling people names isn't "political correctness," it's being polite.
 
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