Can two legal guns make you a felon in New Jersey?

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In New Jersey it is a felony to possess an "Assault firearm" without a permit and permits are unobtainable (no comments please)

The Attorney General interprets an "Assault Firearm" to be any semi-automatic rifle that has two of the prohibited features (like a pistol grip and a flash suppressor)

See http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

The statute says that parts that can be readily assembled into an assault firearm are also an assault firearm.

2C:39.1.w(5)"

A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.


http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/2c-the-new-jersey-code-of-criminal-justice/39-1.html

So my question is this:

If you have two New Jersey legal AR guns, one with one of the features only on the lower (e.g. pistol grip) and the other with one of the features only on the upper (e.g. flash suppressor), are you a felon if you possess both assembled guns at the same time?

Are you a felon if you separate the lower and the uppers of both guns at the same time?

Inquiring minds want to know.

(P.S., my Bushmaster has a pistol grip and therefore I own no folding stocks, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors or any other second feature that might get me into trouble. The Attorney General takes the Assault Firearm statute, and all other firearm statutes, very seriously. New Jerseyians who want to continue to enjoy their firearms steer way clear of any potential violations).
 
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In the federal realm, this was addressed in United States v. Thompson Center Arms Co. (1992). In TC, the Supreme Court held that a TC Contender pistol (accompanied by a rifle length barrel and butt-stock) was not an SBR via constructive posession, that there was a lawful purpose to posessing the buttstock (it could legally be attached after the coposessed rifle barrel was installed).
 
In the federal realm, this was addressed in United States v. Thompson Center Arms Co. (1992). In TC, the Supreme Court held that a TC Contender pistol (accompanied by a rifle length barrel and butt-stock) was not an SBR via constructive posession, that there was a lawful purpose to posessing the buttstock (it could legally be attached after the coposessed rifle barrel was installed).

The Thompson case is here

http://supreme.justia.com/us/98/486/case.html

But it does not really apply.

In Thompson the issue was whether having all the parts in one place was to manufacture a short barreled rifle, when the same parts could be used to also manufacture a long rifle. Thompson sold a Contender Kit that had a pistol (receiver, grip and short barrel) plus an extra long barrel and a shoulder stock. If you took the grip and the short barrel off the pistol and you added both the stock and the long barrel you made a rifle. If you replaced the grip with the stock and left the short barrel on you made a short barreled rifle. The statute required a tax stamp to "make" a short barreled rifle. Supreme Court said statute had to be interpreted leniently and that meant "assembling" the kit was not "making" a short barreled rifle.

In New Jersey the statute gets you merely for possessing the parts that could be assembled to make an assault firearm, so Thompson does not apply.
 
Federal and state interpretations have nothing to do with each other.


It will depend on New Jersey case law.
Which means how a higher court decided on a specific issue when some felon with a huge rap sheet appealed their case that involved a similar issue will determine what rights you have.
So some violent criminal that just finished a crime spree and was caught with at least one non-"assault weapon" but another firearm that combined could make one and was charged for the non-"assault weapon" being an assault weapon lays the groundwork.
If the higher courts uphold his conviction for it being an assault weapon and additional charge along with his laundry list of crimes you lose more freedom. If he wins the argument it is not an "assault weapon" and you the law abiding citizen get to retain a little more freedom.

Case law is very rarely set by a case involving no other charges and an upstanding citizen. So the results are slanted against the criminal appealing their case, and therefore against the law abiding citizen's rights due to the precedent it will set.

That case law then resolves the issue, and if you are charged with something similar it will be referenced by the court as why the charges are valid or not valid (as decided by a higher court.)
 
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This reminds me of something about a GLock and getting a stock for it. Just having the stock is intent to create an SBR (or something like that). Correct me if I'm wrong as I might not have my facts straight.
 
NJ is a crazy state. An empty magazine and even a used cartridge let alone a live one are illegal without a gun owner permit. You will get arrested for these. And of course their gun control is so effective there is no Gun Crime in NJ. Sorry if you are a resident, no offense intended, but can't help ridiculing them. If you even think it MIGHT be illegal, DON'T do it!
 
I live in NJ and we continuously have cities that rank at or near the top in murders in a given year (Camden, Irvington, Newark, etc). Newark just celebrated a "murder-free" month, the first one in about 30 someodd years. This isn't all due to increased gun control as it's mostly increased patrolling because of all the new construction and money being spent in Newark. They built a new arena and performing arts center, so during performances and games, theres 5 cops on EVERY corner. Another possible explanation is that medical technologies have constantly gotten better. Just because no one died, doesn't mean that there weren't any attempts. Gun shots that were lethal even 10 years ago, now are survivable.

Sorry for the rant, but living in this ridiculous state pisses me off. I would move closer to work into NYC, but then I wouldn't even be able to own any guns.
 
I am not aware that magazines or cartridges need permits in NJ

To buy handgun ammo you need the Firearms Purchaser ID card and magazines above 15 are illegal, but that's it.

Of course there are lots of other laws about guns and hollow points etc.
 
Two other "problems"
One in New Jersey one everywhere.

1. In New Jersey a semi auto shotgun with a magazine holding more than six rounds is an illegal assault firearm.

If you have a legal semi auto with a six round magazine, can you buy an extension for your pump that will take it from 4 to six if the extension will also fit your semi-auto?

2. In the U.S. you cannot have a shotgun with an overall length less than 26 inches.

If your barrel is 18, and your receiver is 7 (total of these is 25) can you take your stock off to clean, replace or refinish?
 
I've always wondered something similar about FFA items. Say you have a stamp for one shot barreled shotgun. Say you own another shotgun of the same type. Technically, is that constructive possession of two SBS's? How about it you have one shotgun, and two short barrels for it, say, a 14 inch, and a 12 inch, and you purchase another shotgun of the same type?

At least on the federal side, ATF has put in opinion letters that they think it's OK to have spare parts as long as they are not assembled to anything, and you have at least ONE tax stamped firearm that can use them.

State wise who knows. And of course ATF opinion letters are just that, opinions, and they reverse them now and then.
 
If you have two New Jersey legal AR guns, one with one of the features only on the lower (e.g. pistol grip) and the other with one of the features only on the upper (e.g. flash suppressor), are you a felon if you possess both assembled guns at the same time?


You couldn't have two NJ legal ARs as you describe. "Evil Features" for semi auto rifles include pistol grip, ability to take magazine over 15 rds, bayonet stud, flash surpressor, folding or telescopic stock, and a grenade launcher. If you have two ARs they already have 2 of these (magazine possibilities and pistol grip) so anything else makes it illegal. If you have two uppers one with and one without a flash surpressor you would be in violation under NJs "constructive" possession.

An empty magazine and even a used cartridge let alone a live one are illegal without a gun owner permit.

If it's a over 15 rd magazine and you're not a LEO you can get arrested. I have never heard of any NJ law that prohibits possession of a "used cartridge". You can own guns you legally obtained while a resident of anotehr state and you move to NJ without a "permit".
 
You couldn't have two NJ legal ARs as you describe. "Evil Features" for semi auto rifles include pistol grip, ability to take magazine over 15 rds, bayonet stud, flash surpressor, folding or telescopic stock, and a grenade launcher. If you have two ARs they already have 2 of these (magazine possibilities and pistol grip) so anything else makes it illegal. If you have two uppers one with and one without a flash surpressor you would be in violation under NJs "constructive" possession.

ability to accept the magazine plus two features is the law in New Jersey.
In other words, the "post ban" guns are legal the pre bans are not.
 
NJ is a crazy state. An empty magazine and even a used cartridge let alone a live one are illegal without a gun owner permit. You will get arrested for these.
Can you PLEASE not comment on subjects you know nothing about? There is no "gun owner permit" needed to possess magazines. Possession of magazines with a capacity greater than 15 rounds is illegal - anyone can possess a magazine of 15 rounds or less. Here in NJ, a "used cartridge" is just a piece of scrap brass... agian, nothing illegal about it, and no "permit" required. You may be thinking of Mass., where possession of ammunition components is restricted.
 
ability to accept the magazine plus two features is the law in New Jersey.
In other words, the "post ban" guns are legal the pre bans are not.


Ability to take magazine and two features make it illegal in NJ. Post ban guns have a pistol grip and ability to take magazines so that's it you can't have anything else. You are correct in saying NJ says "ability to accept the magazine plus two features". In other words you can only have one of the features, that's usually a pistol grip.

I know there are people making non-pistol grip, fixed magazine, ARs out there and then you can add features. This is the only way you can build a NJ legal AR with a flash surpressor.
 
Muzzle brakes are legal, as long as they are permenantly pinned. All "Post-Ban" features represent a NJ legal AR, as long as you are using 10 rd. mags. (I say 10 round, as there are no 15 round mags.) An A4 config is fine, but a telescoping butt must be pinned.
 
I say 10 round, as there are no 15 round mags.
There are. Riflegear.com currently sells Pmags perm. blocked to 15 rounds. This summer, Magpul will also be introducing 15-round Pmags.
 
I've always wondered why the gun banners think that flash surpressors are something bad. To me they just look cool and don't have alot of use on something that is semi auto only unless it has a massive muzzleflash. To me it just mostly looks cool.
 
Can you PLEASE not comment on subjects you know nothing about? There is no "gun owner permit" needed to possess magazines. Possession of magazines with a capacity greater than 15 rounds is illegal - anyone can possess a magazine of 15 rounds or less. Here in NJ, a "used cartridge" is just a piece of scrap brass... agian, nothing illegal about it, and no "permit" required. You may be thinking of Mass., where possession of ammunition components is restricted.
Must be. Sorry I confused NJ with another state. I just find it almost comical that something so useless can get you in so much trouble.
 
I've always wondered why the gun banners think that flash surpressors are something bad. To me they just look cool and don't have alot of use on something that is semi auto only unless it has a massive muzzleflash. To me it just mostly looks cool.

Just a way of banning more AR-type guns.
Lots of the semi-auto AR-types had pistol grips and flash suppressors.
If you banned any two of pistol grip, folding stock, bayonet lug and flash suppressor you got most of the pre-ban guns
 
Bushmaster: To be honest with you, you are likely never going to get an answer. The only way you might ever get one to a question like this is the hard way.

NJ's gun laws are written from the perspective that all guns and ammo are illegal, and one may own them only by privilege. NJ's gun laws are very restrictive but that's not the worst of it.

The worst of it, if you ask me, is that they are written in a very vague manner, and clear cut yes/no answers are almost impossible to come by. Unlike California, which will at least tell you "yes you can use a monsterman grip" "yes that is a magazine lock" NJ simply does not tell you, the law abiding citizen, how to comply with their laws.

The AG and NJSP - law enforcement agencies - make up the rules as they go along, pretty much. Just this week, they decided no more CMP shipments to you, must go to an FFL. It was only two years or so ago that they decided you need a permit to purchase a handgun to receive a handgun you already own anyway. For example you put a gun for sale at a shop on consignment, decide you wanna keep it, you'll need a permit to have the FFL give it back to you.

Many of these decisions are not new laws, or anything, it's simply "NJSP said so...and so it is" and for all things gun related in NJ, the best a law abiding citizen can do is "if it feels wrong, it must be wrong - don't do it"
 
The worst of it, if you ask me, is that they are written in a very vague manner, and clear cut yes/no answers are almost impossible to come by. Unlike California, which will at least tell you "yes you can use a monsterman grip" "yes that is a magazine lock" NJ simply does not tell you, the law abiding citizen, how to comply with their laws.

Well actually California does not tend to tell you these things, they come about after lawsuits and challenges force courts to make decisions. People well versed on the law then do the legal action after a lawsuit and a higher decision has made the law clearer.
If anyone has a problem with it they go to court and lose on an already clarified issue.
Finally prosecutors realize they cannot win prosecutions on what has been determined legal, and even if they do it will be overturned on appeal.
So they stop wasting their time.
LEO departments issue memos or tell officers something is legal if officers falsely arresting or charging people for something legal is an issue.


People then get on line and tell you the law. They cite court cases, case law, and LEO and legal experts all agree it is the law. Occasionally the Attorney General will come out and list some things that are and are not legal, but not always.
Sometimes there is a FAQ about the law listing what the writer currently sees as the law based on all these things.
But the law is interpretations, with new interpretations (case law), and so the law in reality is just the most strongly enforced and recent opinion. New opinions come about, and courts try not to reverse previous opinions, while further clarifying them.
Law in the end is really just opinion. A lot of legal processes and legal minds arguing and using previous legal decisions (yet more opinions) to support current legal opinions. With others reviewing and deciding if their opinion is consistent with previous opinions.
Nobody really thinks of the law that way, but that is really all it is, an opinion. That does not mean you can just have a contrary opinion, and do as you wish, it doesn't work that way, but if you know the game and have the funds and fight the good fight you can obtain new opinions.



California about 37 million people, and some very strong gun rights activists and rural areas where guns are very common place and more normal than not having one. They may be outnumbered, but they are still large combined and powerful and get legislation clarified. Once it is clarified these "opinions" as I explained earlier are rock solid and are in fact the law once everyone respects them as such and know a court will say so, and it will cost someone who feels otherwise extensive funds when they are sued.


But I say this because:

Unlike California, which will at least tell you "yes you can use a monsterman grip" "yes that is a magazine lock" NJ simply does not tell you, the law abiding citizen, how to comply with their laws.

It did not start out that way. All California law said was that certain features on a firearm with a detachable magazine were illegal.
Then through a lot of trial and error the situation progressed to defining what a detachable magazine was and was not, since most firearms with a fixed magazine can have the magazine removed. Take a tube fed gun with a fixed magazine (like many shotguns), you can still remove the tube, you just have to unscrew it. So technically it is "detachable". You could even design one that lets you load the tube and then screw it on, and have multiple loaded tubes.
There is many other examples, where what you may think is clear is really not clear enough initially for legal enforcement, and needs to be defined more specifically by law to be easily enforced and understood.
As a result a "fixed magazine" became one that requires a "tool" to remove. That was the clarification, no further.
Well that would seem rather simple right? A tool? You would probably think of a screwdriver, or a wrench, or some other item right? But that is not the definition of a "tool".
So some yahoo decided that anything can be a "tool" including a bullet! And just made a magazine with a release that could not be pressed with a finger, and thus requires you grab hold of some other object, and use it. Thus you used it as a "tool" to press it!
Thus it is a tool, meeting the technical definition.
Over time more and more people began to do this. Because it fit the legal definition. But nobody said it was legal, people just knew it was.
Then eventually so many people were doing it that the CADOJ, legal experts, etc did say it does meets the definition.
But there was always those who pioneered, who knew what the law was (which as I explained is opinions!) and were able to meet the letter and spirit of the law while still finding a solution that was appealing to them.
They did it slowly enough, and eventually had enough other people doing it too before they made a lot of noise, and that insured they were not alone by the time the issue was addressed. It consisted of many people doing what the law said (meaning there was a large group of people to legally challenge who were technically within the law.)


So it is my long way of saying, you could have the exact same thing in New Jersey, you simply don't because you and similar people do not want to. You may not have enough people to get the laws you want, but you most certainly have enough to get specific clarification through lawsuits and case law. And then to have people sued who violate that case law so they stop violating it from then on and know a lawsuit is coming if they do.
It takes dedication, money, and if you want really good results some good legal minds on your side looking at all the angles.

California is simply huge, with about 37 million and statewide preemption on firearm laws, there is enough people to make anything happen if just .1% choose to do something. You still have 37,000 people making it happen. Get just over 1% actively involved and you have half a million people fighting with you.
The County of Los Angeles alone for example has more people than 42 US states have people in the entire state.
It may be thought of as an anti-gun state, and in many ways it is, but it still has a larger number of pro-gun people in it than in most other states.
If you combined half of the East Coast into one state, even including places like Virginia, Florida, etc you would still likely end up with an anti-gun state overall.
 
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a GUN??? LEGAL in NEW JERSEY???

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I've always wondered why the gun banners think that flash surpressors are something bad. To me they just look cool and don't have alot of use on something that is semi auto only unless it has a massive muzzleflash. To me it just mostly looks cool.

They don't even know what it is, what it looks like, or what's it's for--nor do they care in reality. It's them exercising their power to create arbitrary laws based on fear and association. This is how they insidiously nibble away at our rights until there is nothing left. What they want is for nobody--except for police, criminals, and elected officials, although the last two are largely the same group--to own guns of any kind, and they'll create as many meaningless laws demonizing individual parts or features as they need to in order to achieve that goal. I bet that even looking cool could be used as a reason to ban certain features or entire weapons, as any gun that gets used in movies could be claimed to promote imitative behavior, or whatever.
 
You may not have enough people to get the laws you want, but you most certainly have enough to get specific clarification through lawsuits and case law.

Actually, it is very hard and risky to get the laws clarified.
I believe that to start a suit you need to apply for a permit and be denied.
This is a big problem, because the next time you try to purchase a definately legal gun you will have to check the box that you were once denied and you will be denied for this purchase as well.

Quite a chilling effect.

a GUN??? LEGAL in NEW JERSEY???

Actually, lots of guns are legal in New Jersey and it is much less restrictive than jurisdictions like New York City, which is across the river. For example, in New Jersey you can have most handguns, pump shotguns with big magazines and post ban black rifles.

The only real infringement is the de facto restriction on not issuing carry permits.
 
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