Carrying on your own property & the police

[Sawdust]

Let's say I'm carrying openly on my own property and, for whatever reason (let's assume that they do *not* suspect me of commiting a crime), the police show up. Can they disarm me?

For example...say I wake up at night and I think that someone is in my house. SOP for me is to gather my family from their respective bedrooms and exit the house into the garage adjoining the bedrooms. Now we call the cops; when they arrive, I open the garage door to let them in.

I would be still armed at this time. I can see the possibility that they would ask for my weapon (maybe they think for their own safety; putting myself in their place, I can grudgingly understand the request). Do I have to surrender my gun?

I don't think that I should have to, and I especially don't want to in this situation. The officers are (presumably) going to leave me and my family and enter my house, and the last thing I want is to be gunless if they flush a BG my way.

So, what are my rights while on my property?

Thanks,

Sawdust

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Yes, for their own safety, they can disarm you until they determine who you are and whether or not you are a threat.

A good rule of thumb is to not be armed when opening the door to allow uniformed officers inside, especially when you are the one that called them and reported criminal activity. They don't automatically know the good guys from the bad guys.

 

[jnojr]

Well, right or wrong, if the officers decide you need to be disarmed, and you reject their decision, there's going to be trouble. You would face arrest and possibly being hurt or shot. Sure, later on, you would have grounds to argue your case, but there isn't much chance that you'll prevail.

 

[Richard.Howe]

In the spirit of the original question -- I've often thought about carrying my 4" 686 for snakes when cutting the grass. See any issues with open carry on your front lawn, while pushing the old Toro?

 

[oldfart]

There was a time several years ago when I was awakened in the middle of the night by someone knocking on my back door. Since the porch light was off I couldn't see who it was, so I kept a loaded gun in my hand until I had the door open. When I saw it was a police officer, I simply laid the gun on top of the refrigerator and continued the conversation. He didn't appear to be upset with me or my gun.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm having similar concerns, magnified by the fact that my property is five acres of mostly woodlot. A month ago a trooper just wandered onto the lot, ignoring the enormous "NO TRESPASSING" and "BEWARE OF ATTACK DOGS" signs. He was trying to track down a witness who supposedly lived in the area. As it turned out the only dog on patrol was a friendly pup, but it could have just as easily been a much less agreeable adult. Or I might have been packing. I think I"m going to have to put up a tall fence to avoid any further problems. Unless you have a fence people are just going to wander onto your land. It doesnt' matter how many signs you put up, folks will just figure if they have something important to ask the sign doesn't apply to them.

Whatever happened to standing at the road and yelling "hello the cabin!"

 

[Michigander]

I know of someone who was standing on his porch with a .22 rifle. The police came, I'm not sure who called them. The asked him to relinquish the rifle for the time being and he asked if he had to and they said no. He did not relinquish his rifle.

FWIW.

 

[sumpnz]

Far as I'm concerned if I'm on my own property, and the cops show up for something other than to arrest me I will not disarm unless I feel that it is the most reasonable thing to do. In that case they won't even have to ask. If they demand that I disarm they will have to convince me that I need to leave my property first. Once off my property I will disarm if requested, but they better have a darn good reason for me to leave my property voluntarily. Otherwise they can either leave the property or accept my being armed. If that gets me into trouble, well, that's what the courts are for. If they threaten to use lethal force to get me to disarm, well, I'll probably acquiesce, but soon as they leave I'll be calling a lawyer about filing a civil suit.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

that's what the courts are for.

It isn't a whole lot of fun being a test case for your interpretation of your civil rights. If the LEOs feel the need to disarm you, regardless of your reasoning, they will disarm you. Being dead or in prison with a felony conviction (and permanent ban on owning firearms) isn't the best option.

 

[Blackcloud6]

If that gets me into trouble, well, that's what the courts are for.

... and undertakers.

Your best bet is to obey the rules that Chris Rock puts out in his "How to Avoid being Beat up By the Police" video.

Look, if you get involved with a confrontation with the police, and your firearm is involved, you'll likely lose; eithe r the fight that will happen or the court case to follow.

Don't escalate a situation.

Prudence would say to do what they tell you to do without arguement

 

[sumpnz]

Being dead or in prison with a felony conviction (and permanent ban on owning firearms) isn't the best option.

Yes, but ...

If they threaten to use lethal force to get me to disarm, well, I'll probably acquiesce, but soon as they leave I'll be calling a lawyer about filing a civil suit.

I wouldn't want to spend the multiples of $10,000 on a suit, nor endure the stress of such a suit, but in the end I'd consider it money well spent. Notice though that in my post I was careful to at least try and make it sound like I would not be overly confrontational and at least make an attempt to assuage the police by either disarming before even asked, or leaving the property if .

 

[geekWithA.45]

I can't find the link to the threads, but Labgrade did not have a good experience.

Summary:

Labgrade goes out into his property armed to investigate strange goings on, wearing only thin shorts, without holster.

Cops and Labgrade stumble into each other in the dark.

Bad interaction, but no one is hurt.

Labgrade conducts himself reasonably, but imperfectly. Police conduct themselves a great deal less reasonably. Prosecutor conducts self badly. After 8(?) months and much moolah, Labgrade eventually pleads guilty to minor BS misdemeanor charges, rather than duke it out.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Concealed means concealed.

Well, somebody had to say it.

~G. Fink

Would save a lot of trouble anyway.

 

[P95Carry]

I think maybe it is hard to generalize .... circumstances and locations (and states) alter events. Oh and - the cop/cops, on the day!

I always carry ... open at home, concealed elsewhere ... and mow without being too concerned who sees. If (and statistically very unlikely) a cruiser stopped outside - maybe to ask some simple run of mill question, I would not expect much hassle and would not try and hide the piece.

If however I had called the cops for some reason (non urgent ) and they were making a specific call - to my front door, then I'd not be surprised to be asked to place the piece somewhere other than on my person, tho I'd aquiesce reluctantly.

If OTOH a visit was a follow up to an emergency then I reckon I'd either leave piece off once knowing it was (genuine) cops at door - or more readily agree to being (temporarily) disarmed.

Again tho - generalizations are not that easy.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

geekWithA.45 -

For the record, Labgrade, may he rest in peace, was not on his own property. He was either in the road or on his neighbor's property, checking out some hubbub at the neighbor's house.

I agree that he was treated poorly, but he exercised some bad judgement (as I point out in my reply).

I'm not trying to speak ill of the dead. I'm just recounting what I told him directly.

And I still miss him.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sawdust, while you don't feel the cops should be able to confiscate your gun from you on your own property, the reason for doing so is pretty clear. First, they have no idea if you are the home owner or the suspected intruder. For all they know, the intruder might have tied up or killed your family including yourself. So they disarm you. It is the prudent thing for them to do.

Now think about it for a moment. The police respond to a 911 call about an intruder at your home and they don't know who you are. The police would not be surprised to find the intruder armed.

I can understand not wanting to be gunless should the cops flush him. With that in mind, if you suspect an intruder is in the home and the cops go in searching for the intruder, why are you staying so close to your house with your family? If you believe the intruder is still in the house, then you should be as far away from the threat as is reasonably possible, especially because you have your family with you.

Remember, the greater the distance you are away from the threat, the less likely the threat is to act on doing something to you.

If keeping your gun is an issue, then answer the door with the gun concealed. They are not likely to try to take from you if they can't see it or know it is there.

 

[Stand_Watie]

Cajuncoona

You know your neighbors a lot better than I do, would they call the police? While it's entirely legal every place that I've lived, I'd say whether or not it is likely to cause a problem is totally dependant upon local attitudes.

In rural east texas, no problem whatsoever except for that your pistol gets full of dust/sand if you don't have some sort of coverall type holster.

If I ever get the dang thing working right I'm going to use my little .22 revolver for a snake gun as it's just the right size for a pocket.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Some of this would depend on familarity. I know all the cops in the county. They know me to one degree or another. As such I find it highly unlikely they are going to ask me to disarm on my own property. That is going to make a big difference for anyone and one of the reasons I have always believed it's a good idea for people to know their local cops. At least those in more rural areas where there aren't that many cops you have to have at least a passing aquaintance with. Being known as one of the good guys, or at least not overtly dangerous, helps.

 

[SC_shooter]

In the spirit of the original question -- I've often thought about carrying my 4" 686 for snakes when cutting the grass. See any issues with open carry on your front lawn, while pushing the old Toro?

Cajuncoona,

I do this all the time but it's usually either a 38 snubnose or a 357 blackhawk. You would surprised how little time salesman spend at your house when you you come over to them when you're out doing yardwork and they get a glimpse of your hogleg.

I don't give a rat's ass whether my neighbors like it or not.

paul

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

So, what are my rights while on my property?

You seem not to be aware that this is no longer the America it used to be. Things that are perfectly within your rights will get you killed by government agents, and the law will not punish them. It will be determined that the officer was justified in shooting you for your refusal to disarm yourself on your own property. You will be dead (unless you are faster on the draw and a decent shot) and he will receive psychological services to help him get over the supposed trauma caused by shooting you. You have the right to cut trees down on your property, to build structures there, to drain standing water, but all of these things will ultimately get you killed by government if you don't get the right permits first. I mean literally killed, because if you do not drop your drawers and bend over on demand, our government will quite literally kill you. So it is not so much any longer a question of your rights on your property because, although you have many, the government hasn't been in the business of protecting or respecting your rights in a long time. The days when the phrase, "A man's home is his castle," was a doctrine of law in this country are long since over. I, for one, am in favor of reining our government back in, and making it once again our servent rather than our master. This, however, is highly unlikely to ever happen. It will much more likely, based on the lessons of history, continue to get worse.

P.S. Most murder victims, in the history of the modern world, were murdered by their own governments. How unbelievable that it is government that wishes us to be disarmed by them, supposedly for our own good.

 

[FedDC]

There is no truly universal answer, but the most universal answer would be yes, the armed person encountered by the police will be disarmed until the situation gets sorted out and everyone figures out who is who and who did what to whom.

As far as refusing...I can see that going badly and ending up with matching silver jewelry on each wrist...or worse.

I would think that it largely depends on the circumstances as in, are the officers responding to a 911 call of an intruder or are they just collecting for the PBA. ALso, things are different in rural areas where people are more commonly armed on their farms as opposed to downtown DC where guns are a no no.

All in all, my thought is that respect and courtesy goes both ways. The Officer will ask nicely (Hopefully) and if a nice reply is given, everything stays friendly. If it gets ugly, it can get very ugly very fast with guns laying around.

 

[TonyB]

Right after I got married and moved to the "woods",my Father and I were shooting in the back yard.I had called the neighbors on either side to let them know we would be shooting.After about 20 minutes or so we were taking a break(it was winter and freezing).we walked back out side to find a LEO in the yard(up to his shins in snow)...I was holding my 10/22 w/ folding stock,and my Father had his .45 Detonics.We all kind of looked at eachother for a moment,and I said"what's up?"The Leo said"your neighbors called saying someone was shooting."I said I had told them I was going to,but he said they were people about a mile away....He looked around at where we were shooting(safe berm and stuff).He said"well it looks like you're being safe,I just had to check it out.Have a good day."
Never asked to disarm,no hassles at all.....gotta love my Town.
I have shot in the yard many times after with no one calling the cops and only one neighbor incident(she's bi-polar,and wanted to talk to me while I was shooting).....

 

[halvey]

In the spirit of the original question -- I've often thought about carrying my 4" 686 for snakes when cutting the grass. See any issues with open carry on your front lawn, while pushing the old Toro?

Just thinking about that image makes me smile.

A nice lawn, a nice gun, the American dream house in the back....America...

 

[Sawdust]

Great discussion gentlemen; thanks for all of your replies...it has been interesting to see the myriad of thoughts.

I think that FedDC has summed it up the best; particularly his final paragraph.

Sawdust

 

[flatrock]

I would expect that if I called the police to my home about an intruder and they found me armed they would want to hold onto my gun until they had things sorted out.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

Of course the spot I would likely be locked in my master beedroom, and I'd ask them to clear the rest of the house before opening the door. I'd still be on the phone with 911, so they could verify that I was the one who called.

I need to find a good way to meet some of the local police. I know a number of them from where I lived previously, but I just moved to a new area.

If I ever have to call the police to come to my house I think it would be safer for me if they recognized me.