Carrying shotshells for soldiers

[dak0ta]

Just wondering what kind of equipment soldiers use to secure and keep their shotshell ammunition on them. Do they have a pouch with lots of shells? Or do they have all the ammo on the gun i.e. sidesaddle and buttcuff? Also how many shells do they carry? 12? 25?

 

[rcmodel]

WWII era shotgun ammo pouch.
http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/images/shotgun.JPG

VIetnam era, we used to use M-14 20 round, or M-16 30 round magazine pouches. Shotgun shells stack perfectly in them.

Don't know what they use now, but most likely some sort of molly gear pouchs..

rc

 

[MCgunner]

A blaze orange shooting vest, of course!

 

[Grunt]

Back in the late 80s and early 90s in the days of ALICE gear, we used the old ALICE shotgun shell pouches. 12 per pouch, generally 2 pouches (one on each side of the belt buckle) with 2 shells per pouch being slugs. These days with far more choices on the market, I've seen mainly MOLLE shell pouches being used but personally I don't like them. They are secured by velcro on the flap and with a shotgun, you are mainly pulling out one shell at a time and loading it. Problem is now you have to pull that noisy velcro back open every time you need to pull out another shell. With a 590 like we used back then, you could be making a loud ripping sound 8 times to fully reload a shotgun!

 

[dak0ta]

Did you guys ever use a side saddle or stock butt cuff to load from? I was wondering if those belt clips that competition shooters use that hold 5 shells would be more efficient? I've seen them load 8-10 seconds in less than 5 seconds.

 

[Grunt]

No. 3-gun competitors may need speed for a winning score but we need ammunition that will be there when we need it and in serviceable condition. For speed demons, sure, they have their place but in combat, stick with pouches that will keep them far more secure, clean and serviceable.

 

[Grunt]

Let me add to that by saying that for home defense or LEO work where things are a lot cleaner, again, those items may be an option but imagine low-crawling through mud, dirt, sand, etc. like we were trained to do and this is where you are going to run into problems with dirt getting into your ammo or having your ammo falling out like Hansel and Gretel leaving a trail of 12 gauge crumbs.

 

[steveracer]

We used magazine dump pouches for our shotgun shells. All of them we had were small square nylon pouches with elastic flaps over the mouth. Worked great, and held 50 shotgun shells. Never mounted ANYTHING on the shotguns.

 

[dak0ta]

Is there also a limit on how long it takes you to reload a shotgun? Are you trained to reload like a competition shooter, as fast as possible?

 

[chuckusaret]

M-14 20 round, or M-16 30 round magazine pouches

We used them, but at first we used canteen covers for shotgun ammo and concussion grenades. My last tour I had a M16 with a XM203 attached. The thing was awkward, IMO, to load in the heat of battle. I have heard the M203 is being replaced.

Is there also a limit on how long it takes you to reload a shotgun? Are you trained to reload like a competition shooter, as fast as possible?

I don't believe anyone in my unit received any formal training of any type with a shotgun.

 

[Grunt]

Never had a time limit on how fast we had to reload a shotgun that I remember. Today when I teach shotgun to our cops, I tend to bastardize the lesson plan and course of fire during the practice stage. I know the lesson plan says we are to have the students flip the shotgun upside down and load the magazine like they do at the loading barrels and to CMA, I do mention that. However, I tend to bring a bit of Marine training to the USAF and go hard and heavy on keeping the butt in their shoulder, eyes on the target and load with the weak hand while keeping their firing hand on the pistol grip. I emphasize to them that I'm never worried about speed but am far more concerned about technique. Speed up and wind up stuffing a shell in backwards is going to take you a lot longer to get that gun back up and running than if you would have taken your time to ensure you did it right the first time. Just ask yourself, if you are in a hurry, do you have time to do it right a second time? Don't get me wrong, speed isn't a bad thing but technique, smoothness and doing things right the first time is always going to win out over raw speed.

 

[dak0ta]

Well when I said speed, I meant technique was already mastered so that you just do it faster like comp shooters. Comp shooters have good technique which aids in their speed.

Why would police lower the gun, and flip it over? It seems like your technique is more intuitive during a gunfight.

 

[steveracer]

Grunt,
That's exactly how I was taught in the Navy to load the shotgun, and no matter what the drill guide tells me, that's exactly what I've taught these last ten years or so.

 

[Grunt]

You got to remember when I say "cops" I am talking about USAF Security Forces. I'll be totally honest here and say that small arms training in the USAF for the most part is not much more than a CYA statement for the government and it's not taken nearly as seriously as we did in the Marines. One of my fellow instructors is a prior Army sniper and he will say the same thing. Because of the limited amount of time they spend with the weapons, the USAF wants us to teach loading procedures like they would load at a clearing barrel after drawing the weapon from the armory to load up like they would before going out to post. Yes, I do teach that procedure (BRIEFLY) to CMA but the rest of the time I spend with more advanced techniques.
Unfortunately, some of the instructors we get aren't really gun people (they went CATM to get off of flight) others don't have any further training than the training they got from the USAF to know anything else, some will only teach the lesson plan verbatim out of fear of being "not by the book" and some others just don't care. Now some of us are gun guys, have been to other schools be it through the military or on our own dime, are willing to expand the lesson plan teaching and will take the extra time to give a few extra pointers that aren't in the book but it's always a luck of the draw on who you get teaching that day.
Bottom line is that going strictly by the lesson plan, you are to teach to the lowest common denominator and what they are expected to do on a day-to-day basis. The odds of them having the load a shotgun at a clearing barrel is significantly higher than ever having to reload during a gun fight so that's what the air force wants us to teach. Is it right? Hell no but you cover that to make the powers that be happy and you cover what you know they need to know to survive a gunfight with that weapon to keep them safe. It's just the nature of this beast.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Given the nature of the branch, it's understandable that USAF Security doesn't take small arms seriously, but jeez, they sure have an awful lot of high-value targets to protect, and in hazardous areas. I'd hope that an AFB in somewhere like Afghanistan would have a significant capacity to defend itself, or otherwise have a skilled outside force guarding them.

 

[dak0ta]

Maybe cause they're still using aircraft carriers so the likelihood of small arms fire is minimal? And if a PT boat comes, they can use a wide assortment of weapons better than the shotgun to remove the threat?

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Maybe cause they're still using aircraft carriers so the likelihood of small arms fire is minimal? And if a PT boat comes, they can use a wide assortment of weapons better than the shotgun to remove the threat?

By "they," do you mean the Air Force? Because the Air Force doesn't have authority over aircraft carriers or the planes on them--that's Navy, with Marines operating and flying off of them as well.

 

[Jubjub]

This shot is of Marines in Iraq, with the date on the pic being 2004. I count 4 different kinds of shells in the belt.