Case annealing

[kmw1954]

There’s a brilliant article at 6mmbr.com which elucidates the failures of common manual annealing techniques and theories, such as those unfortunately being supported in this thread.

https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html.

I have read that article long before today and now I find it funny that the technique and am using and was told is wrong is also the very last part of the article. Seems to be a contradiction.

Though I also admit I have now found two alternate views on flame color change.

I too have seen a marked improvement in my loads since I started annealing. Be it the correct way or the wrong way it has made a difference.

 

[Engineer1911]

^^^^^ Varminterror, your pompous arrogance is beyond belief, but carry on continuing to annoy other members. My private conversations shall remain private. I know I am not alone. ^^^^^

 

[.38 Special]

What seems to be missed by these folks - I’m never commenting with any expectation pompous old fools will change their ways. But rather I’m commenting with hopes that other reloaders reading their bad advice in threads like these will also read mine, read the supporting science, and realize the old guys doing the wrong things isn’t really the right path.

I’ve only been reloading for 31yrs, and only annealing for 23 of those years. I’ve used all of these methods mentioned here (except the candle and sponge), and have learned this particular science from folks a lot taller and older than myself. It does seem strange that age becomes such an important thing for these folks to bring up so often, as if doing the wrong thing for a long time makes it right. I’ve done my own objective testing as well as my own unbiased research on the works of others, like those articles and info I linked above. Old guys get pissy whenever anyone proves them wrong (well supported by some of the hateful PM’s some of these posters in this thread have sent me) - and that’s fine.

Ignore away - I’ll keep cleaning up the mess when bad science is proposed to other reloaders.

So you were in diapers when I formed my first 6 PPC cases from 220 Russian, annealing them in my fingers and dropping them into water, and then shooting them into point-one-something groups in the light varmint class. I was neck sizing too, which I know really gets your goat.

In your defense, though, I once knew everything too, and was sure that everyone before me was a useless old fool who knew nothing about anything.

 

[.38 Special]

Would you be so flippant if his handle was David Tubb?

I've had a few discussions with Mr. Tubb over the years and he was always helpful, kind, and confident enough in his own skin that he didn't need to be obnoxious to get his point across.

 

[AJC1]

Does brass react the same way with age hardening and cracking as it does with work hardening. I assume it does due to the molecule rearrament. I consider it may be a quality issue of the older cases causing the problem but again I don't know. This would relate to war production from Japan, to England to here. 303 seemed to be very problematic from posts and articles ive read. I considered picking up some of the wood tipped 6.5×55 rounds to play with.

 

[243winxb]

in order to ensure neck expansion when loaded with black powder.

BP may not produce enough pressure?

From Olin brass- "modulus of elasticity- Cartridge Brass-
Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
when work hardened. Modulus of Elasticity is 16,000,000 PSI. This means to pull a 1.000 inch long strip to 1.001 inch long induces a 16,000 PSI stress.
So if you pull a 1.000 inch strip to 1.005 inch long, you get about 76,000 PSI, which is the max obtainable."

https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

If not fully annealed, stress relieving of cartridge brass is beneficial. Around 400F degrees.

 

[Demi-human]

I've had a few discussions with Mr. Tubb over the years and he was always helpful, kind, and confident enough in his own skin that he didn't need to be obnoxious to get his point across.

I know it’s difficult to read inflection in print, and no one here needs any defending by myself, but I just don’t see the obnoxious in the opposition.

And while I’ll never get to be near a place where I’ll be calling world record holders for conversations, about shooting or otherwise, I’ve not heard the same about Mr. Tubbs, but it is good that you have experience to the contrary. I truly believe we are all just humans. (except me.)
I, too, have private conversations with, and find nothing but courteous, thorough help from, Varmint.

I just think it’s funny. Absolutely no information provided in this thread is ground breaking or controversial, yet the ignore button is being floated around like some kind of Nuclear Option.
(It isn’t, it’s plugging one’s ears and saying “Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, I can’t hear you!”)

I’m just one of those weirdos that thinks a bicycle and a train can both arrive at the same place, because they can.

Yes, a candle has the ability to soften brass, eventually.
Absolutely there are better ways.
I just don’t see the contention.

Aren’t we here to discuss?

And I do wish Bart B. of Barts Custom Bullets would post again. I promise to keep quiet and be serious.

 

[rust collector]

There is good information here, but hurt feelings may derail. Please be respectful. We're all working toward better results.

The original post related to nickel plated cases. I get the impression that they can be annealed in the same way as unplated brass. The issue that arose as the discussion progressed was flame color v automated processes. For serious precision, automation is desirable, but requires an investment that may be hard to justify. Others feel they have gotten good results with manual processes.

There are multiple ways to field dress a critter, but most have a preference. Please be kind so that folks can take away what they can use, and ignore what they can't/won't with a minimum of bitterness. Thank you for your efforts.

 

[Pottimus]

So... could over annealing a cartridge case present a hazard to the shooter? To stay on topic, it would seem that nickel plating would make visual references more difficult.

 

[Varminterror]

So you were in diapers when I formed my first 6 PPC cases from 220 Russian, annealing them in my fingers and dropping them into water, and then shooting them into point-one-something groups in the light varmint class. I was neck sizing too, which I know really gets your goat.

In your defense, though, I once knew everything too, and was sure that everyone before me was a useless old fool who knew nothing about anything.

If your only response to the information I provided from reliable, proven sources, with scientific backing is the ad hom “well I’m older than you,” then you don’t have an argument, and worse, you’re being willingly ignorant.

 

[Varminterror]

it would seem that nickel plating would make visual references more difficult.

If you’re flame annealing (improperly) using any color change as your indicator, then the indicator will change, and the rainbow witness line after annealing won’t be as apparent as when using yellow brass.

 

[The Glockodile]

So... could over annealing a cartridge case present a hazard to the shooter? To stay on topic, it would seem that nickel plating would make visual references more difficult.

Repeated delivery of an appropriate number of kcals innumerable times to the case neck and shoulders with appropriate cooling in between = not overannealing.

Excessive number of kcals that conducts its way to the case head = overannealing.

 

[Walkalong]

I think we have answered the question…..