Case selection

[USMC22]

Hi Guys,

Initial post here so please be patient. I've done a search and read the initial Lyman section on "following a recipe" etc. The thing I'm struggling with is that when I look at most recipes they state winchester cases etc. but I see starline and "brass guys" cases for sale and I'm wondering if I can use them in place of winchester or federal cases because I've heard starline is high quality etc. I'm just starting out and want to be safe.

Can someone clarify this for me or reference another manual / authority (not just "you'll be fine)?

Thank you,

Aaron

 

[badkarmamib]

The difference between brass manufacturers is "almost" negligible. Different brands have slightly different wall thicknesses. As long as you start low, and work up, you will be fine brass brand will have the least impact on safety.

 

[Rule3]

Some folks obsess over brass which is fine I guess. A lot depends on what calibers you are loading?

Almost all my brass is from range pickup. Cases like 45 Colt I purchased. as you do not fine them laying around. So use whatever name brand brass you have or can get.

For general range blasting of handguns than to me it doesn't matter. I use mixed headstamp brass for almost every handgun caliber.

Many experienced precision target shooters will use all the same brand of brass to get the most accuracy they can,

One manual will use x brass another is y brass and other z. Same with primers, Most tests also use a specific brand of bullet. Hornady manual of course is gonna use Hornaday but you can use a bullet of the same weight and "style" Which is why always use the strat load and work up your powder charge.

 

[climbnjump]

Can someone clarify this for me or reference another manual / authority (not just "you'll be fine)?

First, welcome to THR.

Rather than tell you "you'll be fine", I'll instead say "it depends..."

If you are just loading plinking rounds and you are starting low with regard to the powder charge, then your choice of case brand won't matter much if at all. On the other hand, if you are trying to create one hole groups, then yes, it might matter.

If you are asking if you NEED to use the same brand of case that is listed in the manual you are looking at, then the answer is no, you don't. But again start low and work up. The manuals are telling you what THEY used to work up the load, not what YOU must use.

 

[USMC22]

I appreciate all the quick replies. I got a lot more reading ahead of me and have the Lyman Manual (50th) and a few others on the way. I plan on reloading 9mm, .223, .308 and maybe a few others with time. Mainly doing it for the hobby aspect with cost savings being a side effect with certain loads. I guess I'm still confused on how to properly work up a load. I'm assuming consistency through a chronograph and good groups.

Thanks folks, been lurking for a few months but just joined.

-Aaron

 

[Walkalong]

What specific caliber, case, and bullet? That would help us answer the question. Of those mentioned in the above post the .308 cases will likely have the most difference in capacities.

Welcome to THR.

 

[Fire_Moose]

Working up a load is making say five, 10 round lots. Starting at Say 22.3gr to 25gr.

 

[Grumulkin]

Of those mentioned in the above post the .308 cases will likely have the most difference in capacities.

A little experiment I did recently. If there is a difference in case capacity, I'd say it makes very little difference on paper. Maybe neck tension is more significant than case capacity? The cases were all annealed which is supposed to create similar neck tension in all.

Working up a load is making say five, 10 round lots. Starting at Say 22.3gr to 25gr.

You certainly can do that but I never have and probably never will. Fifty rounds over a 1.7 grain powder weight range? Try fifty rounds in a 378 or 460 Weatherby some time or even some of the lesser magnums. Not only will you go broke feeding it but your shoulder may need some attention afterwards. No; for initial load workup, I can get just as useful information by making three lots of three cartridges. When you believe you have a promising load, then is the time to make up more cartridges with that load and perhaps tweak it with different primers, etc.

 

[Walkalong]

A little experiment I did recently. If there is a difference in case capacity, I'd say it makes very little difference on paper. Maybe neck tension is more significant than case capacity? The cases were all annealed which is supposed to create similar neck tension in all.

I agree that mixed cases can shoot very well indeed, although if we want to get the best accuracy possible, cases need to match well. The main worry is pressure in the heaviest/thickest cases when working at or around max when using mixed brass.

 

[Blue68f100]

USMC22, Welcome to THR

For your handgun ammo (9mm) mixed brass will make little to no difference. Unless your shooting BE at 50 yrds, then it may. You will probably loose the brass from ejection before you wear it out. There is also some 9mm brass on the market that has step inside the case to eliminate bullet set back. You should separate these out and treat differently. Some bullets contact the step which causes buckling when you seat the bullet. I do not sort 9mm but do for my BE 1911 45acp gun. Does it make a difference? I would say yes. But we are talking about accuracy at 50 yrds which most do not shoot.

As for rifle ammo, you may get more consistent grouping with only 1 mfg. With rifle ammo it's best to do load workup with only 1 mfg brass if you can. This just eliminates 1 variable. Not all brass is equal, particularly in rifle cartridges. Some of the high quality brass like Lapua comes fully prepped ready to load, annealed, trimmed, deburred. These will be very close in internal volume and weight throughout the lot. They actually may give you more reloads vs other brands, too. LC brass is normally heavier walled and may have a different case volume than other mfg. Also with mil spec ammo the primer pockets will have been crimped which mean you have more prep work to do before loading. You can buy once fired brass that is fully processed so you do not spend the time removing crimped primer pockets and trimming.

Always start low and workup your loads. Normally you will have 2 nodes on rifle cartridges, 1 low and 1 high. If the reference manual only gives max load, reduce by 10% for your starting point unless otherwise noted. Don't go below min load, this can cause problems depending on the powder being used.

With all you need to determine the max OAL with your bullet of choice. Some may be short chambered while others are generous. You don't want to jam the bullet into the lands creating a high pressure situation. Bad things happen when done.

I would recommend that for 9mm you use a high loft powder that fills the case. This will help you identify loads that are off easier.

 

[Grumulkin]

With all you need to determine the max OAL with your bullet of choice. Some may be short chambered while others are generous. You don't want to jam the bullet into the lands creating a high pressure situation. Bad things happen when done.

It depends on what you mean by "jam." If the bullet is touching the lands even if firmly, nothing bad will happen as long as the powder charge is adjusted.

The was a bench rest shooter I knew who used the same 5 cases during a match. He reloaded and seated his bullet with his fingers; the rest of the bullet seating was accomplished by chambering the round.

I once managed to load a 375 H&H Magnum case with just a primer; that didn't work well and I had a bullet stuck in the lands. My solution was to load a case with about 2 grains less of powder and shoot the bullet out of the barrel; it worked fine and I even hit the target. If I had had a squib with the bullet stuck further down the barrel, that might not have worked so well. It probably would have been better to remove the bullet with a brass drop rod from the muzzle end.

 

[billybob44]

^^^GREAT info from Blue68....
For the "New" reloader the MOST critical part of your loads is Powder weight/type.
DO start low with the LISTED POWDER and work up your loads.
Primer choice, bullet choice, case choice will come later...Bill.

 

[Rule3]

Just a suggestion. Buy the ABC of reloading.
You can not learn reloading on the internet. Yes, you can ask specific questions but as with most things on the net you will get "information overload"
Lots of it good but sometimes it is difficult to pick out the good from the not so good.

Even between different manuals there will be variables so you need to compare powder weights and type.

Read and research before you buy anything! Start with handgun and master one caliber at a time.

https://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/1440213968

 

[Reloadron]

I plan on reloading 9mm, .223, .308 and maybe a few others with time.

All in due time. Working up loads is not difficult. Loading manuals will show you a Minimum and Maximum charge weight for your powder. Worth noting is depending on manual and bullet the Min and Max charges may vary a little, this is not unusual. As you begin getting going just ask more questions.

Semper Fi
Ron

 

[Sunray]

Hi. Cartridge dimensions are standardized by SAAMI(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute). It's ok to substitute one commercial brand(Starline, Hornady, Winchester, Remington, etc.) of brass for another. Milsurp (mostly .308. .223 isn't always.) brass is slightly different in that it's usually a tick thicker at the base. Internal capacity is a wee bit less than commercial brass.
What brand of brass was used for the tests will vary by the manual. Sometimes it just what was handy for the ballistics engineers.
Oh and read and follow your manual religiously and you'll be fine. Most of 'em have a reference chapter or two that's a pretty good read too.

 

[mdi]

Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating, world of reloading! I also suggest "The ABCs of Reloading" as a text, it'll not only tell you how and why, but give you an idea of the equipment needed. Reloading manuals are not hard and fast formula.They are reports of what the technicians did, what components they used and the results they got. They offer safe load data with the results they got but your results may vary. (I can't remember, in the last 30 years, that I have used maximum book charges, most of my loads are way below max.).

It will be OK to substitute most any commercial brass for what is in the manual (commercial brass), just leave military brass for when you have more experience/knowledge (some military cases have a smaller internal capacity so if the same powder charge is used higher pressures will result). Some reloaders have a personal preference for a particular make of brass, just like any component (Ford vs. Chevy syndrome), and down the line you may develope favorites too..

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...

 

[USMC22]

Working up a load is making say five, 10 round lots. Starting at Say 22.3gr to 25gr.

In .5gr increments? I've been reading some articles and it mentions measuring the web and case mouth for expansion and how the temp plays a role in that loads developed in colder weather may not be safe in hot weather. Just wondering what you're looking at.

 

[USMC22]

A little experiment I did recently. If there is a difference in case capacity, I'd say it makes very little difference on paper. Maybe neck tension is more significant than case capacity? The cases were all annealed which is supposed to create similar neck tension in all.



You certainly can do that but I never have and probably never will. Fifty rounds over a 1.7 grain powder weight range? Try fifty rounds in a 378 or 460 Weatherby some time or even some of the lesser magnums. Not only will you go broke feeding it but your shoulder may need some attention afterwards. No; for initial load workup, I can get just as useful information by making three lots of three cartridges. When you believe you have a promising load, then is the time to make up more cartridges with that load and perhaps tweak it with different primers, etc.

Hi Grumulkin,

What constitutes a promising load? Consistency in velocity, accuracy or a combination?

 

[USMC22]

USMC22, Welcome to THR

For your handgun ammo (9mm) mixed brass will make little to no difference. Unless your shooting BE at 50 yrds, then it may. You will probably loose the brass from ejection before you wear it out. There is also some 9mm brass on the market that has step inside the case to eliminate bullet set back. You should separate these out and treat differently. Some bullets contact the step which causes buckling when you seat the bullet. I do not sort 9mm but do for my BE 1911 45acp gun. Does it make a difference? I would say yes. But we are talking about accuracy at 50 yrds which most do not shoot.

As for rifle ammo, you may get more consistent grouping with only 1 mfg. With rifle ammo it's best to do load workup with only 1 mfg brass if you can. This just eliminates 1 variable. Not all brass is equal, particularly in rifle cartridges. Some of the high quality brass like Lapua comes fully prepped ready to load, annealed, trimmed, deburred. These will be very close in internal volume and weight throughout the lot. They actually may give you more reloads vs other brands, too. LC brass is normally heavier walled and may have a different case volume than other mfg. Also with mil spec ammo the primer pockets will have been crimped which mean you have more prep work to do before loading. You can buy once fired brass that is fully processed so you do not spend the time removing crimped primer pockets and trimming.

Always start low and workup your loads. Normally you will have 2 nodes on rifle cartridges, 1 low and 1 high. If the reference manual only gives max load, reduce by 10% for your starting point unless otherwise noted. Don't go below min load, this can cause problems depending on the powder being used.

With all you need to determine the max OAL with your bullet of choice. Some may be short chambered while others are generous. You don't want to jam the bullet into the lands creating a high pressure situation. Bad things happen when done.

I would recommend that for 9mm you use a high loft powder that fills the case. This will help you identify loads that are off easier.

Thanks Blue,

I was looking at HS-6 and HP-38 for 9mm as my understanding is they are a high loft powder. Thanks for all the good information.

-Aaron

 

[USMC22]

Just a suggestion. Buy the ABC of reloading.
You can not learn reloading on the internet. Yes, you can ask specific questions but as with most things on the net you will get "information overload"
Lots of it good but sometimes it is difficult to pick out the good from the not so good.

Even between different manuals there will be variables so you need to compare powder weights and type.

Read and research before you buy anything! Start with handgun and master one caliber at a time.

https://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/1440213968

Thanks Rule,

Working on reading some manuals now but will add this to the list. I like to confirm things like I said before. The web is a great resource for sure but always nice to check information to confirm.

-Aaron

 

[USMC22]

All in due time. Working up loads is not difficult. Loading manuals will show you a Minimum and Maximum charge weight for your powder. Worth noting is depending on manual and bullet the Min and Max charges may vary a little, this is not unusual. As you begin getting going just ask more questions.

Semper Fi
Ron

Semper Fi Ron,

Thanks Brother.

 

[USMC22]

Hi. Cartridge dimensions are standardized by SAAMI(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute). It's ok to substitute one commercial brand(Starline, Hornady, Winchester, Remington, etc.) of brass for another. Milsurp (mostly .308. .223 isn't always.) brass is slightly different in that it's usually a tick thicker at the base. Internal capacity is a wee bit less than commercial brass.
What brand of brass was used for the tests will vary by the manual. Sometimes it just what was handy for the ballistics engineers.
Oh and read and follow your manual religiously and you'll be fine. Most of 'em have a reference chapter or two that's a pretty good read too.

Thanks Sunray,

That was kind of what I was looking for about the SAAMI specs and brass is equal with few exceptions like military brass being thicker.

-Aaron

 

[USMC22]

Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating, world of reloading! I also suggest "The ABCs of Reloading" as a text, it'll not only tell you how and why, but give you an idea of the equipment needed. Reloading manuals are not hard and fast formula.They are reports of what the technicians did, what components they used and the results they got. They offer safe load data with the results they got but your results may vary. (I can't remember, in the last 30 years, that I have used maximum book charges, most of my loads are way below max.).

It will be OK to substitute most any commercial brass for what is in the manual (commercial brass), just leave military brass for when you have more experience/knowledge (some military cases have a smaller internal capacity so if the same powder charge is used higher pressures will result). Some reloaders have a personal preference for a particular make of brass, just like any component (Ford vs. Chevy syndrome), and down the line you may develope favorites too..

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...

Thanks MDL,

Definitely will add the book to the list.

-Aaron

 

[wiiawiwb]

Thanks Blue,

I was looking at HS-6 and HP-38 for 9mm as my understanding is they are a high loft powder. Thanks for all the good information.

-Aaron

How do you define "high-loft"? If you mean that it creates more volume in the case because of the "high loft", then HS-6 is not that type of powder. I use HS-6 and W231 to reload 9mm. Both are a heavy ball powder that are lower in volume than a flake powder. Compare HS-6 and W231 ball powders to Unique or 700-X which are flake powders and the latter create more volume, more "loft".

 

[USMC22]

How do you define "high-loft"? If you mean that it creates more volume in the case because of the "high loft", then HS-6 is not that type of powder. I use HS-6 and W231 to reload 9mm. Both are a heavy ball powder that are lower in volume than a flake powder. Compare HS-6 and W231 ball powders to Unique or 700-X which are flake powders and the latter create more volume, more "loft".

I guess I'm off track then. So Unique would be better for beginning 9mm in that it fills the case making double charges or higher grains visibly apparent?