Caseless Weapons

[Nightcrawler]

Caseless firearms have been around conceptually for awhile. One production example is that Voere (sp?) caseless rifle. However, I think it's a bolt action; caseless weapons really only come into their own in autoloading designs.

The only real attempt to produce a caseless rifle was the Heckler & Koch G11.

HK G11, image courtesy of HKPRO.

However, I don't like the implementation of the G11. A 4.73mm bullet is too small for my tastes, even in a select-fire assault rifle. The idea was to implement super-high-ROF bursts, to try to get multiple rounds on one target. But this negates the advantage of a large magazine. A better idea is to simply chamber your caseless rifle for a more powerful round.

HK also had some other concepts.

HK LMG-11 Light Machine Gun

HK G11 PDW machine pistol

The biggest advantage of caseless ammunition, as I see it, is reduced weight and bulk. With caseless ammo, you could get a full-powered 7.62mm cartridge that weighed less than a current 5.56mm cartridge. A 5.56mm caseless cartridge would be smaller still, allowing soldiers (especialy SpecOps types that are away from resupply for long periods of time) to more easily carry ammunition.

The downsides are apparent, too. Overheating and fouling need to be addressed, and a different manual of arms would be required. After all, you need to be able to safely clear the weapon and verify that the chamber is empty.

So, what do you think? Is caseless ammunition the wave of the future? Will it replace traditional metallic cartridges as the "standard" in future? Why or why not?

One thing that's been puzzling me. Can anybody think of how to make a caseless handgun that operates any different than a regular one? I mean, let's say you've got your 9mm Caseless pistol round. You have a magazine load of it, that you insert into the pistol. Then what? Would the thing still bascially be breech-locked or blowback operated? All of those complicated loading mechanisms you see in the G11 rifle simply wouldn't FIT in a regular sized handgun. Note that the G11 PDW is about the side of an MP5K, which would be hard to carry in an IWB holster.

Any ideas on that?

 

[californian]

caseless ammo

In the mid 1960s there was a handgun known as a "gyrojet". It fired what was, basically, a small solid fuel rocket. It was reputed to have the firepower of a .45 caliber round. the round could supposedly be fired from a drinking straw (albeit, a large diamater straw), and the firepower was also effective when fired underwater. I saw this in Popular Science magazine, (no, not science fiction). It was never put into civilian production. Anybody know what happened to this technology?

 

[Kalos]

I'm not entirely certain I'd be comfortable with a weapon that relies on an electrical system for ignition. Too complicated in comparison to our simple mechanical weapons. After all, assuming we ignore for the moment current attempts at smartguns , the pistol/rifle/shotgun is one of the few devices completely untouched by the trend towards computerization. A gun is really quite refreshingly simple...

To put it another way--it'd be a real bummer to get into a gunfight only to find out that your battery is dead.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The problems with the GyroJet were twofold.

First of all, it was horribly inaccurate.

Secondly, the rocket-propelled-bullet (RPB?) had to accellerate first; you could literally put your finger over the muzzle during firing and stop the bullet from exiting the barrel, I've heard.


Anyway. What makes you think a caseless rifle would have to be electrically operated? You could have a primer that's ignited with a firing pin just like anything else.

 

[George Hill]

There were some hunting rifles that used caseless back in the 80's. I think they were German... but not HK.
Funky looking ammo... Expensive... No clear advantage.

I think if anything has an advantage - it's brass cases. They hold all the gunk and when they eject - your also ejecting out a lot of the heat too.
Other than Neato Factor - I see no valid rationalization for caseless ammo other than magazine capacity... but I counter that with "If that is your concern, your using too small a bullet anyway".

 

[Redlg155]

I believe the concept of a semi caseless ammunition would make more sense.


Design a projectile with base that would hold a conventional primer. That way the weapon system firing system would be mechanically powered and not be affected battery life, corrosion of wires due to seawater submersion and other problems with electronic systems. Just have the base eject upon firing.

Another problem with caseless ammunition would be making it waterproof and solvent proof. The ammunition would also have to be relatively robust to survive repeated handling and being loaded into magazines.

I for one would rather just keep conventional weapons.

Good Shooting
Red

 

[DougCxx]

Eventually caseless ammo will prevail, because it will be cheaper and easier to make than brass ammo--as well as more accurate, particularly for a sub-maximum-power loading.
----------

All of those complicated loading mechanisms you see in the G11 rifle simply wouldn't FIT in a regular sized handgun.

-The G11 is way more complicated than it needs to be--it seems well-built but poorly engineered. In particular the concept of making each bullet teeny-tiny just so that you can carry a whole mess of them doesn't strike me as the greatest idea--I have no military experience myself, but it's exactly what a lot of people who have say that they don't need.
~

 

[TallPine]

If you want caseless, how about a 50 caliber Hawken muzzle loader ...?

Sounds like backwards evolution to me.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Again- why does everyone think a caseless rifle need be electrically operated? The G11 was recoil operated, I believe. All because that Voere rifle was electrically primed doesn't mean they all have to be.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Let's not forget the Daisey VL...

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Another problem with caseless ammunition would be making it waterproof and solvent proof."

Waterproof is actually fairly easy.

Solvent proof, however, is a lot tough.

 

[Kalos]

I'm no expert on it--was just under the impression that one of the major attributes of caseless ammunition was electronic ignition. Which, I suppose has its own difficulties--careful about static if you've got a mag in your pocket!

As I also seem to vaguely recall, forensics types were not thrilled with the idea of caseless ammo, as quite a bit of data is left behind on the case...

 

[Nightcrawler]

Well, the only caseless service rifle produced, the G11, didn't have electrical priming. I don't see why it's necessary; in fact, it'd be a disadvantage. Nor is electrical priming limited to caseless ammunition. Take the 20mm rounds the M16 Vulcan cannon uses.

Screw the forensics types. Caseless rifles leave as much brass behind as a revolver or a regular rifle fitted with a brass catcher. So unless they want to ban these things to (or make it illegal to pick up your brass) it's a moot point.

Solvent proofing the ammo would be tricky. Perhaps some kind of coating?

 

[Mike Irwin]

Solvent proofing is difficult as hell because you need something that's not going to be affected by normal solvents such as oil, acetone, gasoline, etc., but which will still burn off completely and not leave residual fouling in the chamber.

A very effective waterproofing method is to use either colloidon or even a dissolved nitrocellulose.

Colt firearms offered blackpowder pellets that were waterproofed with colloidon, and attached to the rear of revolver bullets with colloidon glue, in the 1850s and 1860s.

Ramming the "caseless round" broke apart the powder, making it easier for the percussion cap to ignite it, and the colloidon coating just burned away.

Even if the colloidon didn't rupture I believe that the round normally would still fire.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Is caseless ammunition the wave of the future?

I've been ready two decades and longer now.

 

[Apple a Day]

The G11 rounds had a primer, then a booster to set off the main charge. It wasn't electrically fired at all. Early version was a regular nitro-cellulose base, later switched to some sort of RDX derivative (Jane's). A prototype took part in the ACR tests in '89 but wasn't adopted. I don't think the Army was ready to switch over to another whole new type of ammo.

Another little drawback of the gyrojet ammo was that it tended to start fires. That would make me nervous in close quarters.

 

[benEzra]

Isn't most 120mm tank ammunition semi-caseless? Or is it combustible-case with a brass case head?

 

[Kalos]

Mea culpa...!

I hereby apologize for mentioning the electronic ignition thing--I have -no- idea where the idea got into my head, but wherever it was, it wasn't anchored to reality.

 

[Nightcrawler]

So any ideas on the caseless pistol?

I'm thinking that a caseless semiautomatic pistol would be like a regular pistol without an eject port. To clear, remove the magazine and pull back the slide/charging handle, and the unused round would fall out of the magazine well. Or something.

I can't think of any way a caseless pistol would work that'd be any different than a regular one, without being any larger than a regular one.

 

[Guy L Johnson]

Since someone alread mentioned Ignition

The Daisy VL Used Compresed Air as a source of ignition
Guy L Johnson

 

[Redlg155]

A combustable type of polymer may be an answer to the future.

A thick enough casing would allow it to have some resistance to solvents and routine handling such as clearing and reusing rounds. They could also be used in standard magazines. Weapons could be modified to eject a small aluminum base containing the spent primer.

I know polymers are in use these days, but only as a training round and worked in the same way a normal round would. I vaguely remember picking spent plastic Nato 7.62 casings while in Germany.

On the caseless round theory...they could possibly design a single use magazine. This magazine would be pre loaded and remain sealed from contaminents with a window to count remaining rounds. Resupply would be much easier as well. When you are empty just throw the magazine away or retain it for recycling.

Good Shooting
Red

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Isn't most 120mm tank ammunition semi-caseless?"

None that I've ever seen.

I think you're thinking semi-fixed, which means a case with powder, and a separately loaded projectile.

However, most tanks that I'm familiar with use fully cased, fixed ammo.

The single unit promotes rapid reloading cycles, and the case is also an integral part of the fire suppression system. Uncased ammo has to unloaded from separate fire resistant sleeves, while the cased rounds are already highly fire resistant.

 

[c_yeager]

Lets not forget that reloading stops being an option with caseless ammo too. being able to work up the perfect round is a nice luxury that we civilians can enjoy.

 

[DougCxx]

Lets not forget that reloading stops being an option with caseless ammo too.

- Yes but you see: the whole point is that it's cheaper and easier not to reload.

being able to work up the perfect round is a nice luxury that we civilians can enjoy.

-----The G11's ammo is intended for military-only use, but the Voere was made for sport-shooting (hunting). The G11 ammo contains the bullet already sealed inside a block of propellant where it cannot be modified, but the Voere's is shaped like a round "rod" with a hole in one end, and the bullet sticks out and engages the rifling. Or it does, after you put a bullet in: the charges came empty, so you could push in whatever bulllet you wanted, really. Of course one disadvantage is that you can't adjust the power of the charge from what it was manufactured to, but then the advantage here is that the charge will be very consistent. And different-powered charges could certainly be manufactured for the same caliber, you just couldn't modify one yourself after the fact.
~

 

[NukemJim]

Isn't most 120mm tank ammunition semi-caseless

IIRC the 152mm gun/rocket launcher on the M551 Sheridan used (or tried to use) a caseless round for the gun round which the army talked about adapting to other tank cannons. But it was not succesfull.

The big military push for caseless is aircraft, to reduce FOD ( Foreign Object Damage) from ejected shell casings or to eliminate the space required to store the empty casings post firing. The F-15 was supposed to have a caseless gatling type gun that they could never get to work right.

The above info is from reading only, no first hand experience so as always I could be wrong.

NukemJim