Cast bullet load not shooting at all.

[Comrade Mike]

So I was hoping you guys could help me diagnose a problem I had today at the range.

I recently got a new to me winchester 94 to hand load for. I picked it up cheap and gave it the TLC it needed as it was in pretty rough shape when I got it. I always find a ton of .30-30 brass at my range so I figured, what the hell Ill get a rifle for it.

Anyway, fast forward to today and Im trying out my first hand loads.

I'm shooting a powder coated Missouri Bullet Company 165 grain White Tail Round Nose Flat Point bullet they make for .30-30ies. I was doing an optimum charge weight test for two powders.

My unique test went great and produced some great groups out at 50 yards. No complaints there.

My 4198 ladder had all the problems. Across the entire range of charges, I could barely keep 10 rounds on an FBI Q target at 50 yards. I may as well have been shooting a cylinder choke shotgun.

I did a quick swab of the barrel when I got home and there was no leading at all. Sight screws were nice and tight. Couldn't find any problems that would mess with my results down range. So any ideas what could've caused this? Does my rifle just hate this combination? Anyone had this experience before?

 

[jaysouth]

What is the diameter of your bore and throat? What diameter bullet were you shooting?

 

[Hondo 60]

Yes, there are powder/bullet combos that just don't work.

Half the fun of reloading is finding that sweet combo.

 

[steve4102]

It happens, but it's hard to say without some more Details about your loads.

 

[jaysouth]

comrade mike, I am not trying to be a dick, but if you will read all the responses to the post that you started at Castboolits, you will find your answer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?286151-Cast-Bullets-in-the-30-30

 

[MEHavey]

My unique test went great ....
My 4198 ladder had all the problems

Tale of two powder speeds -- and the effect on bullet obturation being able to make up for groove fit

Unique's burn speed is 3X that of 4198.

 

[Comrade Mike]

comrade mike, I am not trying to be a dick, but if you will read all the responses to the post that you started at Castboolits, you will find your answer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?286151-Cast-Bullets-in-the-30-30

No no, you're absolutely fine. I'm still learning here. I'm going to slug my bore today and maybe try some lighter bullets

 

[Sunray]

"...may as well have been shooting..." Your rifle just doesn't like the load. What is the load? And 50 yards is too close.
"...My 4198..." Which one?
"...the TLC it needed as it was in pretty rough shape when I got it..." That might be at least part of the issue. Does take a lot of abuse to damage a modern rifle though.

 

[blarby]

For the reduced charges, Mike, I had far better luck with H4895 than 4198.

2 cents- don't spend it all in one place.

 

[MEHavey]

Missouri Bullet Company 165 grain White Tail...

'Just looked at the website/hardness....
At BHN=18, way too hard for the slower IMR4198's pressure rise to close up the barrel grooves.
Get a sooooofter bullet (or stay w/ fast-rise Unique)


BTW: what was the IMR4198 load?

 

[Comrade Mike]

18-24 grains.

Now I understand why yall control your alloys

 

[MEHavey]

For the same nominal pressure as your IMR4198/24gr load (31,000psi), 4198 doesn't hit that pressure until the bullet has traveled almost 1½" -- well past the throat.

Conversely, 10.6gr of UNIQUE (also 31ksi) hits that pressure and the bullet has traveled only 7 tenths of an inch -- still in the throat/sealing it.

 

[Comrade Mike]

Interesting. Thanks for the info. This is the first time I've dipped my toes into the world of cast bullets and rifles so it's definitely a learning experience

 

[Ifishsum]

FWIW, I have found IMR3031 to work very well for cast .30-30 loads in my '94...170gr FP gas check cast with pretty much straight WW alloy (BHN 12-13?) and sized .309 shoots as well as any factory jacketed load I have tried.

 

[stubbicatt]

I have never had really good luck with commercial cast slugs. I have melted the hard lube out of them and re-greased them with a home made Emmeritt's lube, which made a difference. You might try it and see if it changes anything.

 

[popper]

It's a plain base bullet, try the H4895 light loads, use 2400 or Unique. You won't get it much past 1400 fps with accuracy.

 

[GLOOB]

So your bullets are too small for 4198 when fired. That could be because they started out that way, or it can be because the case squished the bullet.

The powider coat stops the fouling but doesn't fix the root problem. By the time your bullet exits, all the lube is gone and the side of your bullet has been deformed due to the hot gas jetting past one side.


Unique works because it is hammering the bullet hard enough to flatten the end like a pancake.

A third possibility is your barrel could have a constriction that squeezes the bullet down, after it is fired. And unique is able to bump it back to size.

 

[GLOOB]

So you don't necessarily have to slug your bore yet. You already know the problem and can do some measuring of your pulled bullets to see if you have problem number 2. Buying bigger bullets won't solve that one no matter how many times u slug yer bore. Same goes for problem 3. Slugging the bore would be the second step if the first test is negative. Then if you slug the bore and find no issue you probably have issue 3. No you can start playing with alloy to get a bullet soft enough to obturate but hard enough to hold together in the rifling.

When youbgetvfouling, it is the gun telling you there is a problem. Powder coat is putting a gag on your gun. It won't complain anymore, but your bullets will still shoot like crap.

 

[TimSr]

Tale of two powder speeds -- and the effect on bullet obturation being able to make up for groove fit

Unique's burn speed is 3X that of 4198.

Bingo!

 

[snuffy]

I'm shooting a powder coated Missouri Bullet Company 165 grain White Tail Round Nose Flat Point bullet they make for .30-30ies. I was doing an optimum charge weight test for two powders.

When did MBC start selling powder coated boolits? As far as I know they're only selling HI-TEK coated boolits, big difference. There WILL be a problem with the finer points like the difference between HI-TEK coated and powder coated. Some will say quit being such a nit picker, shoot what ya got.

I agree the unique load obturated the boolit better, I would also say I never was able to get either version of 4198 to shoot good groups.