Cast lead 9mm. Having issues

[atblis]

I can't seem to get a load with reasonable leading.

I am loading 147 gr Cast (from Midstates IIRC)
9x19

I was using Power Pistol, but decided to switch.

Now using Unique.

Started at 3.5 grs. Will barely cycle the gun. Accuracy seemed decent, but then fell apart. Barrel is definitely leaded.

I've read that it is possible to load too light, and as a result get leading because the pressure isn't high enough to cause the bullet to expand thus allowing gas to escape around the bullet. Currently I am pursuing this theory, and bumping the powder charge up.

So I am wondering what I need to do

These are the possible problems, solutions I can think of

1) Need to try loading hotter? I've got some 3.7 gr loads to try, but needed to clean first in order to evaluate them.
2) Different bullet. Perhaps the bullets are of poor quality. They look good.
3) It's the gun. Need to slug barrel? Maybe try some 357 or 358 diamter bullets?
4) 9mm is a pain in the but, and I might never get a decent loading for it.

 

[ljnowell]

What kind of gun? Maybe you should slug the barrel?

 

[rcmodel]

If you are trying to load light, neither Power Pistol or Unique are going to give good results.

You need a faster powder like Bullseye, WW231, Titegroup, etc. to bump up the bullet at low pressure.

You will get less velocity but at higher pressure then with either of the two you are using, and it might do the trick.

It could also be the barrel. Some barrels just lead no matter what you do.

Also, the Mid-States bullet appears to be sized .356". So you might want to slug your barrel and make sure it isn't .357" or something.

rc

 

[Steve C]

Try using a light application of Lee's Liquid Alox over the hardcast lube and all. It should help if not eliminate leading.

 

[atblis]

CZ

It's a CZ75B

 

[243winxb]

What do you bullets measure in diameter? They should be same as groove diameter or .001" bigger. The bullets do not bump up in diameter at your pressures. The lube might not be working. 3.9 gr Alliant Unique should be fine with 147gr cast. I would change bullets first.

 

[NuJudge]

A lot of 9mm barrels are bigger than they are supposed to be. Measure groove diameter. Use as big a bullet as your chamber will let you use.

CDD

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Bullseye would be better powder choice IMO but if the slug itself is to far undersized no powder will make them shoot tight groups.

 

[floydster]

I use cast bullets .356 dia. then roll them in Lee Alox in a baggie, stand them up overnite, never any leading no matter what powder I use, hot or not.
These are used in all my CZ's and other auto's,in 9mm and other cals.

 

[atblis]

The lube might not be working. 3.9 gr Alliant Unique should be fine with 147gr cast. I would change bullets first.

I am only shooting 3.5 gr of Unique right now. Trying 3.7 tomorrow.

 

[243winxb]

I should have said, a load TO 3.9 gr Alliant Unique should be fine. I saw you were loading 3.5gr. And its good your going up in small amounts as you should.

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

I am shooting about 1500 of commercial hard cast lead bullets per month and it took me a while to figure out the right powder, powder charge, OAL and crimp to prevent leading in the barrel. Two alpha bullets will need a different setting than Stonewall bullets. It is why when I buy a batch, I try to buy A LOT of those.

All the advises already said here are good. Be aware you will always have some kind of leading. Chore boy copper (NOT the steal one) is very good to clean lead in barrells.

Here are a few tricks I found out that might help you:
- In my case (Taurus 24/7, Steyr M9A1, S&W) the least leading has been attained with Unique 5.2 grains over 125 grains hard cast with a very light crimp with Stonewall bullets. Anything else was causing serious leading.

- In my case (XD, Taurus Millenium Pro_ 45 ACP best result was #2 5.5 grains over 230 grains hard cast lead. Anything else was causing serious leading.

- Some people say it is dangerous, some other say it is fine. Personnally, I am doing it since almost 2 years and old timers at the club do it since 20 years: I mix hard cast lead and FMJ (ratio 1 FMJ for 8 Lead) and it keeps the leading to a minimum WITH MY GUNS and MY LOADS. Do not do that until you resolve the severe leading issues.

- In my 357 and 44mag, I do use very low velocity 6-12 shots of hard cast lead at the end and it removes all the lead. I got that trick on handloads.com and it really works.

I want to warn you that you need to be always prudent with advises and motitor closely the leading in your barrel because it may increase the pressure if you have too much.

Hope it helps.

Thank you

 

[rfwobbly]

I also shoot a CZ, but not lead. However, I do know this much....

• 147gr is an especially hard bullet to load for in a CZ, due to the short freebore. The 147gr bullet has to sit deeper in the case, leaving even less case volume for powder. You can end up needing a very dense powder like VV N340.
• Around 124gr is the optimal bullet for CZ. You're going to have a much easier time in this weight range.
• CZ barrels are not known to be especially prone to leading
• If all else fails, try some black moly bullets from Precision or Black Bullets Intnl

Hope this helps!

 

[atblis]

Hmm

I tried 3.7 and 3.9 gr today. Still not good. Bad accuracy, and some leading. I am almost certain that the bullets were keyholing, as some of the holes didn't look quite right. Unique from everything I can find appears to be the magic powder (that or 231).

This is the bullet
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=95

I am loading long. 1.160"
Anybody have a published OAL for that type bullet? It's referred to as a 147 gr FP (for flat point I assume)

Slugged the bore. It is dead nuts at .355"

Going to play with crimp and OAL to see what happens.

 

[wally]

Strange, I find 3.7-3.9gr Unique and a hard cast lead 147gr FP bullet to be very clean shooting.

I shoot mostly steel plates and often get the gun so hot I burn my hand on the slide if I'm not careful when I put it away. Usually go 1000-1500 rounds between takedowns, usually just wipe it down and put it up for next time out.

I'm pretty sure I used the exact bullet you linked along with whatever else I can get my hands on when I needed more.

I've pretty much never found cast bullets to group as well as a jacketed or swaged bullet, but the swaged bullets need to be in the 700fps range or you'll get severe leading.

I'd contact Missouri Bullets, maybe they had a bad batch of alloy. Are the bullets really 0.356" as specified?

Rule of thumb for cast bullets is they'll shoot better +0.002" over bore, but I've been happy with 0.356" bullets, but then I'm not trying to shoot them all through the same hole.

Often "key holing" is from not have a solid backing behind the paper target.

--wally.

 

[atblis]

Well

Measuring the bullets, they measure between 0.355" and 0.356". My calipers only show +- 0.001" They appear to be not quite 0.356" but probably closer to 356 then 355

 

[rfwobbly]

I am loading long. 1.160". Anybody have a published OAL for that type bullet? It's referred to as a 147 gr FP (for flat point I assume)

Atblis -
Like I was saying, I don't believe you can use a published OAL with this bullet in a CZ barrel. The ogive looks all wrong to me, but then you'd have to test it.

Unique should be working good. Win231, while optimal for 124gr, is generally too fast and not used with a heavy bullet like a 147gr.

 

[docmagnum357]

this is interesting, a I just started shooting a Cz 75b. Do any of you know much about the frangible bullets from Sinterfire? What cact bullet/ load is really accurate in a cz75b?

 

[atblis]

Well

The OAL was actually 1.11" not 1.16" I've dropped it to 1.10" and changed my crimp.

We'll see what happens tomorrow.

 

[MissouriBullet]

Report on OAL change?

"The OAL was actually 1.11" not 1.16" I've dropped it to 1.10" and changed my crimp.

We'll see what happens tomorrow."

I'm betting it's OAL causing the problem. I've encountered that in loading 147 grain FP's.

Anxious to find out!

And no, there was no "bad batch of alloy." Our alloy is certified analysis 6% Sb, 2% Sn.

Is it our bullet, or is it Mid-States? If it's ours, then you need to match the CUP with to bullet hardness (explained on our "Technical" page at our site.) I don't know what BHN specification Mid-States manufactures to.

Brad

 

[bluetopper]

Go back to Power Pistol and try 4.3 grains behind a 147gr bullet. Just a tad off max and very accurate and doesn't lead my 9mm 1911.

 

[yodar]

leading a CZ 75

Gas Cutting causes leading

Gas cutting can be caused by too much powder, too small a bullet (poor fit), or too hard a bullet (poor fit)

I have been shooting the truncated conical 124 gr bullet I cast from a Lee 6 cav mold for decades in my CZ-75 and 5 other nines

I see streaks of lead in the barrrel, but there never is any build up.

I cast wheelweights with a tiny bit of tin (0.5%) and Like I said, it shoots fine WHEN NOT OVER POWERED.

You over power a properly fit cast bullet and you will get gas cutting and leading. Use the bullet with the power recommended for that bullet and you wont get leading if you dont try to melt the bottom off the bullet it as it leaves the bore.

Same philosophy applies to shooting my cast bullets in the SKS. Shoot within the limits of the load described for that bullet and you wont have leading. I approach 2000 fps with a lead bullet and hit the 5" target spinner at 100 yards.

It isnt bullet HARDNESS the prevents leading. A dead soft bullet, properly FIT and loaded properly, will not lead.

A super hard bullet could even CAUSE leading if it is SO hard that your charge wont bump up the bottom of the bullet to engage the rifling & seal the lands from gas cutting. It has happened.

These are axioms from a e-list used by the cast bullet association.

yodar

 

[243winxb]

atblis, are you using a Lee FCD?

 

[rfwobbly]

I am loading long. 1.160".

The OAL was actually 1.11".

What's a mere .050" among friends? :banghead:

 

[Bboomer]

+1 on yodar

The first mistake that you can do is to purchase lead bullets first, without slugging your bore.

I haven't read all the posts but your bulet should be .001/.002 larger than your bore.

I cast for most pistol calibers (all straight wheel wts), leading is non existant, all w/Unique.

I would guess that one, your bullet is too small in dia and/or too hard for the bullet to obturate. Plus, I haven't had good luck with hard lubes in the past either.

Do you have any 38/357 lead bullets that you can try?

Most of all, don't get discouraged. It takes a while to figure out a good combination for lasting results. I've walked in your shoes, experimentation is what its all about. Now go scrub that bbl.

Send me your addy and a few bucks towards shipping and I send you a few different samples to try. Some (Lee TL) lubed with alox and some with one grease groove lubed w/Felix (best).