Going to try to cast my own bullets. How do I prepair wheel weights all the way from pulling old ones off the rim to making ingots to store the lead. And are there wheel weights to avoid? Talk slow and use little words I'm new to casting. Thanks in avance.
casting wheelweights?
- Thread starter rlf
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Lots of casters with lots of knowledge here at THR, but the folks over at the at Cast Boolits forum live for bullet casting. Good place to check out.
Wheel weights make great bullets. Sometimes you will want to "water them down" some with pure lead, or add some 95/5 (Antimony/Tin) solder to bolster them a little. Linotype is also used to strengthen wheel weights. Pure tin in is added sometimes as well.
Bottom line is wheel weights are a great base to work with, but also make excellent bullets as is. They are getting scarcer and if you can scrounge some, get all you can.
The stick on weights are pure lead, so just understand that. Perfectly usable. There are some Zinc wheel weights out there. Some folks might be able to look at them and recognize them (shinier), but if they can't be identified that way they melt at a higher temp and can be weeded out when melting a batch of wheel weights down to make ingots. Just keep the temp high enough to melt WW and too low to melt the Zinc. They will float to the top with the other crap like the metal clips, dirt etc.
Wheel weights make great bullets. Sometimes you will want to "water them down" some with pure lead, or add some 95/5 (Antimony/Tin) solder to bolster them a little. Linotype is also used to strengthen wheel weights. Pure tin in is added sometimes as well.
Bottom line is wheel weights are a great base to work with, but also make excellent bullets as is. They are getting scarcer and if you can scrounge some, get all you can.
The stick on weights are pure lead, so just understand that. Perfectly usable. There are some Zinc wheel weights out there. Some folks might be able to look at them and recognize them (shinier), but if they can't be identified that way they melt at a higher temp and can be weeded out when melting a batch of wheel weights down to make ingots. Just keep the temp high enough to melt WW and too low to melt the Zinc. They will float to the top with the other crap like the metal clips, dirt etc.
evan price
Member
OK, first, you will want to understand that several states have already outlawed lead wheel weights. Most major tire shops and manufacturers are already phasing out lead weights completely so they do not have to make, stock, ship and track two different types of weights or worry about sending the wrong weights to a state they are illegal. This means that lead weights are getting harder and harder to find as the non-lead weights are getting more and more common.
It used to be that I had less than 10% scrap weight out of a bucket of smelted used wheel weights- and that included the dross and steel slips and non-lead weights. That percentage has increased vary much over the past year and is now over 25%. A bucket (std. 5-gallon) full of used wheel weights is typically 180 pounds or so. That means I am getting 40-50 pounds of junk in every bucket instead of 5-10 pounds of junk!
If you plan on using scrap lead, don't melt the scrap in your casting pot. The crud, dirt and scum will clog the melter and make it hard to get clean bullets. I melt my scrap in an old steel pot outside over a turkey fryer burner and pour clean ingots after fluxing and cleaning the alloy. The dirt, steel clips, nonlead weights, tire valves, etc. float on the dense liquid lead and get skimmed out with a slotted spoon or strainer.
Non-lead weights are usually Iron (which floats on molten lead and is easily skimmed out), Plastic (which also gets skimmed out but smokes and burns) and Zinc (Which as long as you keep you melt temperature around 700 degrees or less, won't melt and will float on top of the liquid lead like the steel stufff will).
Zinc is somethign to be careful of- especially when initially starting a melt from a cold pot. Zinc melts around 800 degrees. Your lead will be liquid around 650-700 degrees. HOWEVER when starting a cold pot most of us crank the heat all the way up to speed up the first melt- this WILL be hot enough at the bottom of the pot to melt zinc. You need to start a cold melt with known lead weights and only when you are liquid and holding around 700 degrees, add more unknown weights. When zinc melts with lead it will (with enough zinc in proportion to lead) cause the lead to go chunky like oatmeal. Then it won't pour into a mold!
800 degree melt temps is hot enough to burn the lead and give you pretty colors like gold and purple which is the lead oxidizing. The lead and tin oxides form dross which is you losing material. Fluxing will help get the dross back into liquid state but keeping temp well under 800 will be the better plan. Otherwise all the dross that is otherwise good tin or lead that you skim and dump is just material you are wasting.
Iron weights usually say "Fe" on them, the chemical symbol for Iron. Zinc weights sometimes say "Zn" on them but sometimes not. Any weights you see where the weight itself is rivited to teh clip are usually zinc. If in doubt, you can attempt to squeeze/cut the suspect weight with a pair of pliers. The lead ones will deform or cut. The zinc or iron ones will NOT deform or cut.
Clip-on wheel weights usually contain an alloy of lead and antimony and a touch of tin. They are a harder alloy than pure lead. They are about perfect as is for casting bullets. Sometimes you might need to add some more tin to get the mold to make nicer bullets.
When added to lead alloys, TIN makes the alloy a little bit harder, but its primary purpose is to make the lead flow better, make it fill in the tiny edges and contours of the mold better. ANTIMONY makes the alloy harder, and as a benefit it will get harder still when it is quenched by dropping your hot bullets into water. The typical alloy used for casting bullets is called "Hardball Alloy" and contains 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2% tin by weight.
Clip on wheel weight lead varies depending on what was available when the factory was making the weights- most are recycled lead- but in my experience is sort of about 96% lead, 3.5% antimony and .5% tin.
The easiest way to add tin to your alloy is by using plumbing solder. It's not cheap but it's easy to do. Measure off so much wire sodler and drop it in the pot.
The stick-on weights that are lead are very soft lead, nearly pure. They are too soft to shoot as-is in most centerfire guns. The guys that load black powder like them and will often trade for 'hard' lead they don't like to use in muzzleloaders. Or the soft lead can be sold. Or you can blend with hard lead to make a softer alloy.
There are places to buy lead alloy, such as Rotometals. A couple ingots of Sueprhard alloy mixed with the stick on weights gets you good casting metal.
You don't need super-duper-hard cast bullets for most general shooting- the important things are bullets sized to match your gun's actual bore size, a good lubricant, and then an alloy not too hard and not too soft.
The hardness of the alloy is measured in Brinnel Harness Number. This is a number that goes from 4 (pure, soft lead) to 14 (clip wheel weights) to higher still like printing metals or babbitt (25+). I find bullets in the 10-14 range when properly sized shoot the best in most handguns without gas checks.
It used to be that I had less than 10% scrap weight out of a bucket of smelted used wheel weights- and that included the dross and steel slips and non-lead weights. That percentage has increased vary much over the past year and is now over 25%. A bucket (std. 5-gallon) full of used wheel weights is typically 180 pounds or so. That means I am getting 40-50 pounds of junk in every bucket instead of 5-10 pounds of junk!
If you plan on using scrap lead, don't melt the scrap in your casting pot. The crud, dirt and scum will clog the melter and make it hard to get clean bullets. I melt my scrap in an old steel pot outside over a turkey fryer burner and pour clean ingots after fluxing and cleaning the alloy. The dirt, steel clips, nonlead weights, tire valves, etc. float on the dense liquid lead and get skimmed out with a slotted spoon or strainer.
Non-lead weights are usually Iron (which floats on molten lead and is easily skimmed out), Plastic (which also gets skimmed out but smokes and burns) and Zinc (Which as long as you keep you melt temperature around 700 degrees or less, won't melt and will float on top of the liquid lead like the steel stufff will).
Zinc is somethign to be careful of- especially when initially starting a melt from a cold pot. Zinc melts around 800 degrees. Your lead will be liquid around 650-700 degrees. HOWEVER when starting a cold pot most of us crank the heat all the way up to speed up the first melt- this WILL be hot enough at the bottom of the pot to melt zinc. You need to start a cold melt with known lead weights and only when you are liquid and holding around 700 degrees, add more unknown weights. When zinc melts with lead it will (with enough zinc in proportion to lead) cause the lead to go chunky like oatmeal. Then it won't pour into a mold!
800 degree melt temps is hot enough to burn the lead and give you pretty colors like gold and purple which is the lead oxidizing. The lead and tin oxides form dross which is you losing material. Fluxing will help get the dross back into liquid state but keeping temp well under 800 will be the better plan. Otherwise all the dross that is otherwise good tin or lead that you skim and dump is just material you are wasting.
Iron weights usually say "Fe" on them, the chemical symbol for Iron. Zinc weights sometimes say "Zn" on them but sometimes not. Any weights you see where the weight itself is rivited to teh clip are usually zinc. If in doubt, you can attempt to squeeze/cut the suspect weight with a pair of pliers. The lead ones will deform or cut. The zinc or iron ones will NOT deform or cut.
Clip-on wheel weights usually contain an alloy of lead and antimony and a touch of tin. They are a harder alloy than pure lead. They are about perfect as is for casting bullets. Sometimes you might need to add some more tin to get the mold to make nicer bullets.
When added to lead alloys, TIN makes the alloy a little bit harder, but its primary purpose is to make the lead flow better, make it fill in the tiny edges and contours of the mold better. ANTIMONY makes the alloy harder, and as a benefit it will get harder still when it is quenched by dropping your hot bullets into water. The typical alloy used for casting bullets is called "Hardball Alloy" and contains 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2% tin by weight.
Clip on wheel weight lead varies depending on what was available when the factory was making the weights- most are recycled lead- but in my experience is sort of about 96% lead, 3.5% antimony and .5% tin.
The easiest way to add tin to your alloy is by using plumbing solder. It's not cheap but it's easy to do. Measure off so much wire sodler and drop it in the pot.
The stick-on weights that are lead are very soft lead, nearly pure. They are too soft to shoot as-is in most centerfire guns. The guys that load black powder like them and will often trade for 'hard' lead they don't like to use in muzzleloaders. Or the soft lead can be sold. Or you can blend with hard lead to make a softer alloy.
There are places to buy lead alloy, such as Rotometals. A couple ingots of Sueprhard alloy mixed with the stick on weights gets you good casting metal.
You don't need super-duper-hard cast bullets for most general shooting- the important things are bullets sized to match your gun's actual bore size, a good lubricant, and then an alloy not too hard and not too soft.
The hardness of the alloy is measured in Brinnel Harness Number. This is a number that goes from 4 (pure, soft lead) to 14 (clip wheel weights) to higher still like printing metals or babbitt (25+). I find bullets in the 10-14 range when properly sized shoot the best in most handguns without gas checks.
James2
Member
Some like to melt them all down and make ingots. This is ok if you want to clean them up and have nice clean ingots for when you go to casting.
I just melt some wheel weights in the pot, dip out the clamps, flux and go to casting. I usually add a bit of solder for the tin. Tin helps the mold fill out better. Any fat or wax seems to work OK for fluxing. I have used deer tallow and bees wax. I am just using a cast iron pot on a camp chef stove. Nothing fancy nor very expensive.
Since I don't know what the temp of the melt is, I am careful to sort and remove all zinc before melting. One zinc weight in the mix will ruin the whole pot. Lead will write on a board. Zinc won't. If dropped on a cement floor, zinc rings, lead thumps. If snipped with a pair of dikes, you can see a definite difference in the hardness. Zinc is harder. Just some ways to test for zinc besides the melting point.
Remember safety equipment. Gloves and eye protection. I like to cast outside because there is quite a bit of smelly smoke involved. Keep water away from molten lead. It is one thing to drop cast bullets into a bucket of water, but never let water get in the pot of molten lead. Enjoy!
I just melt some wheel weights in the pot, dip out the clamps, flux and go to casting. I usually add a bit of solder for the tin. Tin helps the mold fill out better. Any fat or wax seems to work OK for fluxing. I have used deer tallow and bees wax. I am just using a cast iron pot on a camp chef stove. Nothing fancy nor very expensive.
Since I don't know what the temp of the melt is, I am careful to sort and remove all zinc before melting. One zinc weight in the mix will ruin the whole pot. Lead will write on a board. Zinc won't. If dropped on a cement floor, zinc rings, lead thumps. If snipped with a pair of dikes, you can see a definite difference in the hardness. Zinc is harder. Just some ways to test for zinc besides the melting point.
Remember safety equipment. Gloves and eye protection. I like to cast outside because there is quite a bit of smelly smoke involved. Keep water away from molten lead. It is one thing to drop cast bullets into a bucket of water, but never let water get in the pot of molten lead. Enjoy!
jcwit
member
Most everything has alreabe said. Unless I missed it tho, here's a word of caution,
Never, ever use a aulminum pot, pan, cooking whatever you wish to call it to smelt your wheel weights. Use only steel, stain less steel, or cast iron.
Reason: Alu. will let you down when you least expect it. And the Tinsel Fairy is not a friendly spirit.
Hope this helps and good casting.
jcwit
Never, ever use a aulminum pot, pan, cooking whatever you wish to call it to smelt your wheel weights. Use only steel, stain less steel, or cast iron.
Reason: Alu. will let you down when you least expect it. And the Tinsel Fairy is not a friendly spirit.
Hope this helps and good casting.
jcwit
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,153
Warning:
Don't get caught taking them off other people's rim's.
One owner just might be another bullet caster! It'd be tough to catch a w/w bullet in the back-side!
Don't get caught taking them off other people's rim's.
One owner just might be another bullet caster! It'd be tough to catch a w/w bullet in the back-side!
snuffy
Member
Evan, that's a hard act to follow, not much I could add. Except to guide RLF to the casting section over on the firing line where we have a thing we called casting 101.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346199
There's a quite a bit of reading and some pictures of my smelting set-up.
To do the job right you need a sturdy steel or cast iron pot to melt the wheel weights in. DO NOT USE AN ALUMINUM POT! An aluminum pot will get soft at lead melting temps, then collapse spilling the lead on the ground! A turkey or fish fryer is THE best heat source. Make sure it will support the weight of the pot and when it's full of lead. An eight quart dutch over will weigh 100 pounds when full of hot lead!
You'll need a ladle and something to make ingots with, IE, ingot molds. If you can find muffin tins, they make great ingots. Otherwise Lyman and RCBS sell 1 pound ingot molds, stay away from the lee ingot molds, they have 2 one pound ingots and 2 ½ pound ingots. The Lymans can make a 5 pound ingot by filling the whole mold up to the top, which attaches the 1 pounders underneath.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=496285
Then, get an electric casting furnace. Temperature control is very important. Most electric pots have a thermostat that controls temperature but use only a reference number on a dial. The lee pots have numbers from lo to high with 2 to 9 on the dial, those numbers correspond to percentage of time the heater element is on.
BUT to really know the temp requires a lead thermometer. Lymand and RCBS both sell them, they're not real expensive. Once you get started, you'll be full of questions. Get registered over at cast boolits, they'll help any newbies get over the initial learning curve.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346199
There's a quite a bit of reading and some pictures of my smelting set-up.
To do the job right you need a sturdy steel or cast iron pot to melt the wheel weights in. DO NOT USE AN ALUMINUM POT! An aluminum pot will get soft at lead melting temps, then collapse spilling the lead on the ground! A turkey or fish fryer is THE best heat source. Make sure it will support the weight of the pot and when it's full of lead. An eight quart dutch over will weigh 100 pounds when full of hot lead!
You'll need a ladle and something to make ingots with, IE, ingot molds. If you can find muffin tins, they make great ingots. Otherwise Lyman and RCBS sell 1 pound ingot molds, stay away from the lee ingot molds, they have 2 one pound ingots and 2 ½ pound ingots. The Lymans can make a 5 pound ingot by filling the whole mold up to the top, which attaches the 1 pounders underneath.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=496285
Then, get an electric casting furnace. Temperature control is very important. Most electric pots have a thermostat that controls temperature but use only a reference number on a dial. The lee pots have numbers from lo to high with 2 to 9 on the dial, those numbers correspond to percentage of time the heater element is on.
BUT to really know the temp requires a lead thermometer. Lymand and RCBS both sell them, they're not real expensive. Once you get started, you'll be full of questions. Get registered over at cast boolits, they'll help any newbies get over the initial learning curve.
DM~
Member
Here's how i do it,
I melt the WW's in a kettle on my fish fryer, in the shop, cleaning all the junk out of the lead in the kettle, then pouring the melted lead into ingot moulds i made.
The ingots are stored until i need one, then it goes into the melt pot, to be turned into bullets.
DM
I melt the WW's in a kettle on my fish fryer, in the shop, cleaning all the junk out of the lead in the kettle, then pouring the melted lead into ingot moulds i made.
The ingots are stored until i need one, then it goes into the melt pot, to be turned into bullets.
DM
RugerBob
Member
+1 with what they said..
Airborne Falcon
Member
I've got several five gallon buckets full of WWs. I really need to start molding them into ingots and quit doing them a little at a time. Seems like every time I decide to use the new ingot mold it rains.
DM~
Member
I always like to keep some lead around that's ready to use,
There's 1,800 pounds of it right there...
DM
There's 1,800 pounds of it right there...
DM
evan price
Member
I forgot to add: FLuxing- fluxing is adding a carbon-bearing substance to the elad and using that to chemically recombine the oxides back into the mix. You can flux with about anything containing carbon. When I am making ingots from scrap lead I use old drained motor oil. Works great, flames up nicely, and lets you clean the alloy. Some guys use paraffin, beeswax, sawdust, fat, candles, crayons, or commercial flux. Basically you should melt the scrap and clean the dirt and get the tin & antimony mixed well.
Always remember this- anything wet that gets under the surface of molten metal will cause a steam explosion. One dripping wet wheel weight can make an eruption like a miniature Mount Krakatoa. Water that lays on the surface will sizzle and evaporate. UNDER the surface will explode. Little spatters of molten lead go everywhere. They will burn to the meat through your skin. We call this "The Tinsel Fairy" because of the lead strings that go everywhere. My wife is still PO'ed about the lead spatters on the patio from when some wet weights got dumped in the pot.
Wear cotton or leather when smelting. Synthetics will melt onto your skin in case of accident. Eye and face protection and good ventilation are a must.
Always remember this- anything wet that gets under the surface of molten metal will cause a steam explosion. One dripping wet wheel weight can make an eruption like a miniature Mount Krakatoa. Water that lays on the surface will sizzle and evaporate. UNDER the surface will explode. Little spatters of molten lead go everywhere. They will burn to the meat through your skin. We call this "The Tinsel Fairy" because of the lead strings that go everywhere. My wife is still PO'ed about the lead spatters on the patio from when some wet weights got dumped in the pot.
Wear cotton or leather when smelting. Synthetics will melt onto your skin in case of accident. Eye and face protection and good ventilation are a must.
zxcvbob
Member
You can get started with a $10 electric hotplate from Walgreens and a 2 quart steel saucepan. Make sure the hotplate has open coils and not a solid cast iron top, and it will easily get hot enough to process scrap lead about 15 to 20 pounds at a time.
WW's are hard to find here, and are about 20% or more trash. I bought some from the scrap yard once and that was a mistake (had a *lot* of zinc and steel weights mixed in.) I get a lot more lead just picking it up off the ground at the pistol shooting range; I don't even have to dig into the berms.
WW's are hard to find here, and are about 20% or more trash. I bought some from the scrap yard once and that was a mistake (had a *lot* of zinc and steel weights mixed in.) I get a lot more lead just picking it up off the ground at the pistol shooting range; I don't even have to dig into the berms.
Seedtick
Member
I always like to keep some lead around that's ready to use,
There's 1,800 pounds of it right there...
DM
DM, I would never have thought of using a concrete block to keep ingots from being blown out of place by a stiff breeze.
You da man. Great idea!
Seedtick
highlander 5
Member
I use a camp stove from Dick's,runs off a 20 lb tank large cast iron pot and 2 fry pans that are divided into pie wedge shape that weigh in at 2lbs when cold. Check yyour local scrap yard for WW and linotype. A 50/50 mixture maakes a very nice bullet or you can heat treat WW. size them first then place in oven at around 425 -450 degrees for 1/2 hr then quench in cold water then lube as normal. This will bting the hardness to 18-22 on the Brinell hardness scale. You can get pre blended no 2 alloy from a company called Roto Metal a little pricey but if you spend $100 or more the shipping is free.
mcdonl
Member
I love pictures!!
SSN Vet
Member
I use an old Coleman single burner camp stove with white gas, as it seems to get hotter faster than propain.
I don't camp anymore, so I might as well use it for something.
Just keep in mind (as has already been noted) that a pot full of lead is some heavy, and tipping the stove over will not be an experience that "makes your day"
I stir the mix with a wooden stick, which chars and fluxes the mix, and put a dash of Ivory soap in.
When it comes to fluxing, I can't really say I know what the heck I'm doing though. I stir up the melt, pinch in little chunks of soap (stand back for the flames), stir it some more and skim off the crud.
Silver metal gets poored into the Lee billit mold.
While shopping with my wife last week, they had a 20% off everything in the store sale at Renny's, so of course I insisted that my wife get some of the fancy new cup cake tins
Funny how the old cruddy ones seemed to disapear from the recycled bin
I don't camp anymore, so I might as well use it for something.
Just keep in mind (as has already been noted) that a pot full of lead is some heavy, and tipping the stove over will not be an experience that "makes your day"
I stir the mix with a wooden stick, which chars and fluxes the mix, and put a dash of Ivory soap in.
When it comes to fluxing, I can't really say I know what the heck I'm doing though. I stir up the melt, pinch in little chunks of soap (stand back for the flames), stir it some more and skim off the crud.
Silver metal gets poored into the Lee billit mold.
While shopping with my wife last week, they had a 20% off everything in the store sale at Renny's, so of course I insisted that my wife get some of the fancy new cup cake tins
Funny how the old cruddy ones seemed to disapear from the recycled bin
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