CATO Attorneys to NRA: Butt Out!

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http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/Item.asp?ID=3577

CATO Attorneys to NRA: Butt Out!

NRA Counsel Charged with Professional Misconduct & Damage to Case

by Angel Shamaya

May 5, 2003

KeepAndBearArms.com -- On the 17th of April, 2003, the National Rifle Association's attorneys -- Stephen Halbrook and Richard Gardiner -- tried to bull their way into the CATO Institute's Second Amendment lawsuit. NRA filed a MOTION TO CONSOLIDATE in attempt to force unwanted consolidation of CATO's case (Parker v. District of Columbia) with the NRA's later, grossly inferior case (Seegars v. Ashcroft).

NRA's motion was filed just 13 days after they notified the world that they'd filed their lawsuit against the Attorney General.

CATO attorneys Alan Gura and Robert Levy appear more than a little upset about the NRA's invasion of their lawsuit. On May 1st, they responded rather bluntly with the following:

MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES IN OPPOSITION TO MOTION TO CONSOLIDATE AND IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR RECUSAL OF COUNSEL

This motion in opposition to NRA's attack is 22 pages. First Paragraph:

"The motion to consolidate should be denied because it is untimely, ill-conceived and inappropriate. Allowing the Seegars plaintiffs to join this litigation would substantially and unnecessarily complicate what is presently a straightforward single-issue case. By adding a variety of extraneous claims to a case that is nearly ready for summary disposition, the Seegars plaintiffs would impede this court in resolving the narrow issue presented in the Parker litigation and substantially prejudice the Parker plaintiffs by delaying resolution of their claim." [emphasis added]

MOTION FOR RECUSAL OF COUNSEL

First Two Paragraphs:

"COME NOW the Plaintiffs, Shelly Parker, Dick Anthony Heller, Tom G. Palmer, Gillian St. Lawrence, Tracey Ambeau, and George Lyon, by and through undersigned counsel, and move the Court for an order recusing counsel for plaintiffs in Seegars v. Ashcroft, 03-834-RBW. The motion is made on grounds that counsel for the Seegars plaintiffs, Stephen Halbrook and Richard Gardiner, are barred from engaging in that representation by D.C. Bar Rules of Professional Conduct 1.6, 1.9, 1.10, and 3.2." [emphasis added]

"As demonstrated below, the Seegars plaintiffs' attempt to participate in this case is motivated not by a bona fide desire to adjudicate their claims, but by the improper strategic goals of their sponsor, the National Rifle Association ("NRA"). See Exhibit A. Finally, as further documented below, the Seegars plaintiffs' counsel, Stephen Halbrook, has refused to recuse himself from this action, despite the fact that he is now taking a litigation position that is materially adverse to his own former clients, Parker counsel Robert Levy and the Parker plaintiffs." [emphasis added]

Read the whole Motion. It reveals the nature of the NRA's First Allegiance so profoundly we hope every gun owner in America reads it.

DECLARATION OF ROBERT A. LEVY

A brief sworn statement detailing how NRA counsel Stephen Halbrook and his handlers at NRA apparently have no concern for the effect that their intrusion into the CATO case will have on CATO's plaintiffs. NRA's people seem willing to sacrifice a good Second Amendment lawsuit (Parker) for their own questionable reasons.

DECLARATION OF ALAN GURA

A brief sworn statement detailing how NRA counsel Stephen Halbrook and his handlers at NRA apparently have no concern for the effect that their intrusion into the CATO case will have on CATO's plaintiffs. NRA's people seem willing to sacrifice a good Second Amendment lawsuit (Parker) for their own questionable reasons.

Proposed Order

Levy and Gura even drafted an order to deny the NRA their assault on a good case that includes a grant for recusal of NRA's attorney -- and submitted it to the court to make it easier for them to do the right thing.



COMMENTARY

WHAT IS THIS REALLY ABOUT?

The CATO lawsuit was already tackling the D.C. gun ban -- the redundancy, coupled with the complication NRA brought in, will cost time and allow anti-gunners to rally against us. CATO's suit didn't go after Ashcroft and thus won't bring the full weight of the Justice Department and their competent attorneys with unlimited resources in as defendants. Is NRA really this stupid? Or do they actually need help on their case -- help from the superior legal team at CATO? Or, worse yet, are they deliberately trying to sabotage the CATO case? Few could deny that NRA is seeking to hog some credit for the good work of others -- especially so since the NRA hasn't filed a pure Second Amendment case and pursued it to the Supreme Court since their founding in the late 1800's. Perhaps it's all of the above.

DEJA VU!

This situation is reminiscent of the NRA's incompetent attempt to kill the Silveira v. Lockyer lawsuit being funded by the good supporters of KeepAndBearArms.com. NRA and their operatives didn't invent it, so they want to kill it -- or at least inflict as much damage as possible under the guise of helping. We are used to betrayals by the National Rifle Association. Now the good people at CATO are finding out what informed gun owners have known for many decades.

NRA's version of the Second Amendment is contrary to that of our nation's Founders, so let's hope the judges throw them out of this Consolidation Farce. Kudos to CATO's attorneys, Robert Levy and Alan Gura -- we applaud your "high road" approach to dealing with the politicians pretending to be patriots at the NRA. We are behind you 100% and wish you complete success in your case.
 
When Robert Levy was speaking to our Gun Club about a month ago he mentioned that the NRA had filed its own suit. I never knew this but the NRA has NEVER challenged the DC gun ban. Isnt that ridiculous. THe NRA doesnt want to take the case to SCOTUS because they think it will lose with the current makeup of the court.
 
The reason the NRA has never filed a suit is because of the suits like in Morton Grove. The money was spent and the U.S. Supreme Court simply refused to hear the case.

This is still a dangerous proposal. We have waited forty years for a good lawsuit and we can't wait until a least one of the liberals on the court retires in as little as four years.

This isn't a good idea.

Just another slam piece against the NRA by keepandbeararms.com.
 
Written that way Jim, I can agree with you. The NRA should take another look at this. Angel definitely has a problem and the problem is a mind set of GOA good and NRA bad. He has been instrumental in causing a division in the ranks since he started his website.

It doesn't help that the GOA is his main sponsor.

One of the more recent fight has been the Georgia trigger lock law. Before this, the members of the GOA kept saying they are the best of the gun groups. When they started to run into trouble, the CSG[ I think that's their name] which is a affiliate of GOA started yelling for help. The NRA was neutral on the subject. It should have been perfect for the GOA to show everyone what they had. They did win but it's unfortunate that they still had to ask for help from from the members of a group their members insult at every opportuntiy.

Angel has no credibilty as far as I'm concerned.
 
Shooter 2.5

just another slam piece against the NRA by keepandbeararms.com.

Maybe so. But if you have an axe to grind against Angel Shamaya and KABA, it should stay there.

The way I see it, the CATO-employed lawyers (the DC lawsuit is not funded by the CATO institute), have the right to not include the NRA lawyers in this lawsuit. I know that Jim March said good things about the NRA involvement and Stephen Halbrook, but I still think that maybe the NRA should have its own lawsuit and not stick is nose where its not wanted.

"We are from the government... We are here to help."
"We are from the NRA... We are here to help."
 
From what I can tell the CATO Institute wants a lawsuit as soon as possible.

Why?

We've gone forty years without a lawsuit and now when we have a Republican Senate, House and President with a chance of replacing at least one of the liberal judges, now everyone is falling all over themselves to get a verdict.

Why now?

I don't like the idea of having the "Wrong" judge but this is not the right time to be doing this.

On my comments to the article, I think I should have the right to comment on any article that is posted here. I wouldn't ask or expect anyone to leave the keepandbeararms articles over there without printing them here.
 
Please do not mislead people about KABA.

"Shooter 2.5" mused:
Angel definitely has a problem and the problem is a mind set of GOA good and NRA bad. He has been instrumental in causing a division in the ranks since he started his website.

It doesn't help that the GOA is his main sponsor. ...

Angel has no credibilty as far as I'm concerned.
KABA has identified the rift that already exists. And we've done so very effectively, in spite of apologists who vilify patriots for being honest.

GOA isn't a "main sponsor" of KABA at all. They've advertised on our site since it launched because they know that informed gun owners hang out at KABA -- and they have certainly benefitted greatly from so doing. (In fact, we've given far more advertising than they've paid for.) They also helped us do a mailing one time -- helped us mail a petition to our existing members. We do identify philosophically with GOA; when it comes to Principles, GOA dances circles around NRA. But you're inventing stuff in your head there by calling GOA a "main sponsor" of KeepAndBearArms.com. In fact, advertising accounts for a PUNY (tiny, itsty bitsy, minuscule) percentage of KABA's revenues. Our "main sponsors" are individuals who see that NRA is run by sellouts -- a sad fact considering that most NRA members are the finest people on the planet. So please refrain from telling fibs against us, "Shooter 2.5".

As for my having "no credibility," I'll keep that in mind while reading the daily praise from people who disagree with your assertion. :p I'll ponder that when WorldNetDaily reports on our activities and quotes me again, too. I'll give your opinion due consideration while noting that several more people joined our organization today for the first time -- as paid members -- and some of them also kicked in to the Second Amendment lawsuit NRA's incompetent attorney tried to kill.

BTW, anyone reading the CATO/NRA piece here is encouraged to go to the original to see the filings referenced in the article. This situation isn't about "me" or "KABA" -- it's about NRA trying to sabotage a good case for their own selfish reasons. Here's the link: http://KeepAndBearArms.com/information/Item.asp?ID=3577
 
Out of all the gun groups that exist, is the GOA your main sponsor?

Are you still dredging up the thirty year old crap in blaming the NRA for the 68 GCA?

Still reporting that Charlton Heston wanted Assault Weapons banned when his later interviews said He didn't like them but they shouldn't be banned?

Ask yourself, what is the hurry in trying to get a Supreme Court ruling now before we have a chance to replace one of the lib justices? Or is the the NRA correct in reading which way the ruling will go before we get a chance to replace one in the next couple of years?
 
Out of all the gun groups that exist, is the GOA your main sponsor?
GOA hasn't written us an advertising check, or any other check, in so long I'd have to find out when it was. So no. In fact, no other gun rights organization has given KABA money in something like two years. So, no. Gonna apologize now?
Are you still dredging up the thirty year old crap in blaming the NRA for the 68 GCA?
Your implication is that detailing long-standing patterns of activity is a bad thing. On that point, we disagree. But to answer your question directly -- in hopes of getting a deserved apology -- no, we haven't gone back into NRA's past transgressions any time recently.
Still reporting that Charlton Heston wanted Assault Weapons banned when his later interviews said He didn't like them but they shouldn't be banned?
We only ever reported the facts about Mr. Heston. I'm sorry facts trouble you so. The report we ran about Heston is right here, should you wish to address something contained therein in a new thread -- long as you apologize first:
Guns Make NRA President "Nervous"
Ask yourself, what is the hurry in trying to get a Supreme Court ruling now before we have a chance to replace one of the lib justices?
Your question has a built-in presupposition that our liberal President would put a conservative on the High Court. It contains another presupposition that a Justice will retire on Bush's watch. It contains a third presupposition that there's no way to get a correct ruling from the current makeup of the court. Neither presupposition is a given, so I refuse to believe your myths. Furthermore, given NRA's pattern of legal bumbling, it makes no sense to count on them to get the job done.
Or is the the NRA correct in reading which way the ruling will go before we get a chance to replace one in the next couple of years?
Expecting a sane, rational and savvy liberty advocate to believe NRA is adept in Second Amendment legal matters after they've proven the opposite is rather silly.

There, now. I answered all of your questions. Now answer one for me: When someone falsely reports that GOA is our "main sponser" and thus directly implies that we are bought and paid for when we are not, isn't an apology in order? Absent one, you can talk to yourself to the tune of a megabyte.
 
Angel, at least the NRA actually calls and writes to people when they say they're going to. I met you here a while back and you were looking for people to help out with regional RKBA issues and asked for my phone and email, which you got. You never did call or email. But since then, I did get invitations in the mail to go to the NRA-ILA Grassroots Workshop for the elections when Renzi and Salmon were running (didn't see you there, either, by the way.) And if a lot more gun owners took the time to come down to that ILA Grassroots worhshop instead of sleeping in, we might have Salmon in office and not Nappytano and worrying about what she's going to do. (And I see lots of people in the local gun shops I didn't see at the ILA workshop.) Not trying to slam you, bud, but if you're going to slam the NRA, then have a better solution. As it is now, you seem to have problems communicating, something the NRA doesn't have problems with. So, until you have a better organization, why not stop with the crusade against the NRA? They started back when there wasn't email and telephones and they managed to get a sizeable number of members to work with.
 
Sir Galahad:
if you're going to slam the NRA, then have a better solution
As relates to this thread, how about NRA stops trying to forcefully take over a lawsuit being run by someone else. That's a good solution for this issue -- one with which CATO's attorneys agree.

Whatever your real name is, if you're really in Flag, give me a shout. I have no idea who you are so can't comment on the alleged not having contacted you to help with a program that we chose to forego entirely. 522-8833

--AS
 
Does the Ben Avery Range public meeting at the Radisson ring any bells? If you chose to forego building an organization, how can you possibly be effective at anything beyond slamming the NRA? It's easy to be a critic. Let's see what your group has to offer. Let's see your membership rolls. Let's see your networking with the politicos that matter. Until you have an organization with actual members that actually get out there and vote and actually ave a presence (as the NRA does; there is a reason why the NRA is hated by liberals), I fail to see how you're accomplishing anything beyond helping the antis with your anti-NRA crusade.
 
Do not put words in my mouth.

Does the Ben Avery Range public meeting at the Radisson ring any bells?
The one where NRA's lobbyist from D.C. (Darren LaSorte) asked me to be the tough guy and told me I handled the speaking situation better than he did? Ya. I remember that one. (I disagreed with Darren. He did a great job speaking, as he ALWAYS does.) I also remember three NRA leaders telling me afterwards that they appreciated my stance in the matter afterwards, too -- including AZ NRA Director Todd Rathner and now ___VP Sandy Froman. (I kept the emails.) They were particularly appreciative of my hearty public praise of their fine efforts.

Funny you should bring it up, actually.
If you chose to forego building an organization, how can you possibly be effective at anything beyond slamming the NRA?
I never said we "chose to forego building an organization", Skipper. I said we forwent that program.

Do you always put words in people's mouths while running cover for guys who tell falsehoods? (Shooter 2.5) Or am I just lucky? :D
Until you have an organization with actual members that actually get out there and vote and actually ave a presence (as the NRA does; there is a reason why the NRA is hated by liberals), I fail to see how you're accomplishing anything beyond helping the antis with your anti-NRA crusade.
In other words, until we're the NRA, shut up. Roger that, Mr. Anonymous. You make perfect sense.

You're also implying that KeepAndBearArms.com doesn't have "actual members" who "actually get out there and vote" -- a false implication, which lumps you in the same category of deceivers as Shooter .25

Frankly, Mr. Noname, I am fine with you worshipping the NRA and attacking anyone who tells the truth about a few of their shortcomings -- shortcomings which directly affect my son's future rights. People who choose the easier, softer way are quite plentiful, and they have a right to their opinions. But I believe that people who disagree with a few NRA policies have that same right -- to speak out against what they consider wrong. Don't you?

You did say one thing that I adamantly agree with when it comes to your position, "Sir Galahad":
I fail to see
I believe you on that point and commend you for admitting it. The key to seeing where I'm coming from, in general, might be found in an objective analysis of the report that started this thread. If you weren't busy failing to see, you'd be pretty angry with NRA's sabotage of a damn good Second Amendment case.

Instead, your first loyalty is to the NRA instead of to liberty, so you can't bear to look at the facts presented and deal with them on their face.

The NRA does not have a lock on the right to keep and bear arms. They do not own liberty. They do not possess freedom. Many things they've done over the years while running their "our shi*t doesn't stink" program were just plain stupid -- some of them also incredibly damaging to our basic freedoms. The stack of evidence proving that fact is painful to look at. I can see why many among us are unable to handle the facts.

But it's quite amazing, to me, that you and your dishonest cohort on this thread still have yet to address the subject matter that got this conversation started. Instead, you're both behaving like Lefties who can't do battle on the facts -- so they resort to ad hominem attacks. The facts go unchallenged, but you feel good for picking on the messenger. Seen it many times. And it's still just as boring and tedious as it ever was.

BTW, since you're in Flagstaff, let's get together and go perforate some perfectly innocent soda cans and talk this out under the bright Arizona sunshine. Sunday afternoon's good for me. Gimme a call.
 
PS.

I fail to see how you're accomplishing anything beyond helping the antis with your anti-NRA crusade.
Noam Chomsky's quote responds well to your general concept:
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." -- Noam Chomsky, American linguist and US media and foreign policy critic.
Lots of passive, obedient people in this country, and in this movement. I ain't one of 'em.

-_AS
 
Mr. Shamaya,

I formally apologize for saying GOA is your main sponsor based on your denial.

I would suggest you learn to work together to defeat the common enemy who are the anti-gun people.

There are different ways of defeating gun control and I am not in agreement of the CATO Institute lawsuit at this time.

As far as other gun groups joining lawsuits, I believe the SAF started the Ohio lawsuit, joined by the NRA and then followed by the GOA. This system does happen. If I am wrong about this, anyone is free to correct me with facts and I respect that.
 
Apology accepted.

Mr. Shamaya,

I formally apologize for saying GOA is your main sponsor based on your denial.
Apology accepted and appreciated, Shooter. I just wish I knew where on Earth you came up with that idea. First time I've ever heard that one -- or at least the first time I remember! :D
I would suggest you learn to work together to defeat the common enemy who are the anti-gun people.
You're implying that there aren't any enemies on our side, my fellow freedom fighter. That is, unfortunately, not true. NRA's bumbling attorney tried to kill a case our organization is funding. Now they're trying to sabotage CATO's case. NRA's idiots did the attacking on those points -- with an overt legal incompetence a non-attorney can see right through, if he/she is rigorous enough to look objectively.

Or does "learn to work together" mean "ignore backstabbing jackasses"? If so, that will never happen here -- but I respect our difference of opinion, quite sincerely.
There are different ways of defeating gun control and I am not in agreement of the CATO Institute lawsuit at this time.
The trend, when viewed over the past 65 years, has been that gun control has increased -- with NRA's continued (and current) support and endorsement and praise. They haven't gotten the job done. That is a fact that nobody with an IQ over 80 can deny. Pleading with Dianne Feinstain will accomplish nothing. Patriots living behind the iron curtains in California, New York City, Taxachusetts, Chicago and a few other socialist havens have either the High Court, or they have Arms. Wake up.
 
Well I tried to take the high road with this discussion and you dragged it down to your level.

First off, the NRA does not and has never supported gun control. We didn't have the votes in the House and the Senate to stop most of the gun control during the forty years and the NRA has tried to activate the 95% of the gunowner who don't seem to care. Causing a division in the ranks continues this problem. During the early fights against gun control, the NRA didn't have the members it has today but the political power is finally starting to shift.

Now that we're getting more pro-gun politicians in office like we saw in the CCW fights, johnny come latelys are suddienly saying how come we couldn't do this before.
Standing on the shoulders of giants is a saying that comes to mind.

I do know that the only group the media and the libs fear the most is the NRA. It isn't any other group. The problems the NRA had back in the 60's was corrected in the '70's. The membership problem has been corrected and the ILA was created to help with the policial end. Charlton Heston is no longer the President so whining what he said back 30 years ago isn't a problem unless you continue to make it so.

So which case were you working on that the NRA's "bumbling attorney" tried to "kill"?

If you're still curious why I thought the GOA was your main sponsor, It must have been the large GOA insignia on the left side of your homepage and the 30 year old attacks against the NRA on the right. I stopped going to your website a long time ago so I didn't know if and when you changed it.
 
Lying to Defend Deceivers.

NRA does not and has never supported gun control.
Bridge in Brooklyn, low prices. http://KeepAndBearArms.com/NRA/ Plenty of evidence to defy your absurd claim. That you could even make it confirms my conviction that you are living in a fantasy world. Best of luck in all you do -- other than lying like you just did above.
So which case were you working on that the NRA's "bumbling attorney" tried to "kill"?
Glad you're so well informed. Here it is, again: CRPA/NRA Lawyer Undermining ALL Our Rights. It was contained as a link in the original post on our site that sparked this thread. But bash me while lying about NRA's long-standing gun control support if it makes you feel happy.

I'm done with you. Your kind bore the crap out of me.
 
NRA HAS supported gun control laws!

Shooter, Angel is correct. The NRA does support gun control laws. They appear to be proud of that fact. Copied directly from their website:

Anti-gun activist groups claim that all of their proposals--including gun bans, prohibitive taxes, registration and licensing to name a few-- are "moderate and reasonable." Those who oppose such ideas, they say, are "unreasonable." And they claim that NRA opposes all gun laws. The truth is, NRA supports many gun laws, including federal and state laws that prohibit the possession of firearms by certain categories of people, such as convicted violent criminals, those prohibiting sales of firearms to juveniles, and those requiring instant criminal records checks on retail firearm purchasers.1

NRA has also assisted in writing gun laws. The 1986 federal law prohibiting the manufacture and importation of "armor piercing ammunition" adopted standards NRA helped write.2 When anti-gun groups accuse NRA of opposing the law, they lie. NRA, joined by the Justice Department and Treasury Department, opposed only earlier legislation because that legislation would have banned an enormous variety of hunting, target shooting and defensive ammunition.3 The sponsor of the earlier bill, Rep. Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.), felt that his original goals were met by the NRA-backed bill that became law. "Our final legislative product was not some watered-down version of what we set out to do," Biaggi said on the floor of the House. "In the end, there was no compromise on the part of police safety."

Similarly, the anti-gun lobby also continues to falsely claim that NRA opposed all efforts to ban "plastic guns." In truth, no "plastic" firearms existed then or now. NRA only opposed a bill that would have banned millions of commonplace handguns, and instead supported an alternative, the Hughes-McCollum bill. That 1988 legislation prohibited the development and production of any firearm that would be undetectable by airport detectors, and enhanced airport security systems to counter terrorism. In the end, the NRA-backed legislation passed Congress with wide bipartisan support and was signed into law by President Reagan.

At the state level, NRA has worked with legislators to write laws requiring computerized "instant" criminal records checks on purchasers of firearms and those who carry firearms for protection in public. Because crime can be reduced by correcting deficiencies in criminal justice laws and policies, NRA has worked with legislators and citizens' groups in many states to increase the violent criminals to prison rather than probation, to prevent the parole of the most violent convicts, and to expand prison capacity.
 
Tempest, that's about enough with the facts around here. Knock it off. You're helping the anti-gunners. What's wrong with you? ;)

Seriously, people like this character don't care about the truth. They shill for the NRA and tell blatant lies in public places behind the cover of anonymity -- attacking anyone who dares any honesty. Waste of bytes.
 
now, now... :)

The truth must be told, Angel. Always. I feel confident Shooter will at least re-examine his words.

mittelgr144.gif
 
According to that, they compromised so the law would only go after felons instead of you, they compromised so they would go after all-plastic guns instead of your Glock and they compromised so they would go after armor piercing ammo instead of your hunting ammo.

Is that correct?

While all of that was going on, did we have all the votes we needed in the House and Senate during the Clinton years to stop any of those laws? Yes or no.
 
According to that, they compromised so the law would only go after felons instead of you, they compromised so they would go after all-plastic guns instead of your Glock and they compromised so they would go after armor piercing ammo instead of your hunting ammo.
So I should support gun laws and organizations that support gun control as long as they don't affect me? Is that the deal?

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller
 
Angel, my name is Kevan Taylor Perry. Remember me now?:rolleyes: You should. You had my name, phone number, and email addres written on the back of your binder. In case you forgot, it was you who approached me in the parking lot of the Radisson after the meeting wanting contact info. I didnt approach you. But, no contact. So that tells me that you're good at running a website, even better at criticizing people, but have little fundamental skills in organizing. You do well with yur insults (well, empty barrels always make the most noise), but you have little to offer but your own version of the "truth". Like a true demogogue who exists only to rail against and tear down, but offers no solution of his own. I have no intention of calling you or going shooting with you. You come here and make personal attacks sandwiched in between your own self-pious smugness, then you think I'm going to go shooting with you?? Or waste time calling you?? No, thanks.

My initial point, Angel, is that YOU don't do the things you say you're going to do. So who are you to cast judgement on the NRA when you perceive they don't? Easier to have expectations of others you don't live up to yourself, isn't it? When confronted with that, you seek to make me out to be some kind of a blind follower of the NRA, blah, blah, blah. I'm not defending everything the NRA does. I'm asking YOU what YOU do so much better? I'm asking YOU how you're better and how YOU do more. I'm asking YOU where your organizational skills went. If you want to paint me as whatever makes you feel good, fine. I couldn't care less. Believe me, Angel, your opinion is right up there with "Uncle Don" Fannings and Mary Sojourners and all the other local "activists" who want to be big political fish in a small pond. Except Flagstaff Activist Network has actual members that actually show up to events!!!

So, we'll just have to cut bait here and you can blast me all you like. But if you think that you can say the things you said and then, hey, let's go shooting?! Yeah, right... :rolleyes:
 
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