CATO Attorneys to NRA: Butt Out!

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Okie dokie.

Angel, my name is Kevan Taylor Perry. Remember me now?
Nope. But that doesn't mean I didn't write your number down. I may have. If I failed to call you when I said I would -- that happens from time to time -- then I apologize for that, Kevan. Seriously.

If you change your mind about getting together, let me know. I don't take your jabs personally and definitely see that we're on the same side more than not. We just disagree on some fundamental issues. If you ever decide to get around to addressing the ORIGINAL point of this thread rather than diverting elsewhere, I'll listen to what you've got to say. Otherwise, take it easy. Heard about the drive-by shooting up here in Flag yesterday afternoon -- first time that's happened since I've lived here. Pretty weird, but not surprising.
 
No hard feelings, here.:D That drive-by isn't the first, actually. There was a biggie last year over by NAU, off Lonetree (if you know where I'm talking about, you know it's a place to avoid.) They usually happen in Sunnyside and South Flag. There are some little "satellite" gangs that operate here, especially in Slummyside.
 
wheww, lotta exciting discussions in this thread.
First, I don't really buy the "now isn't the right time for the case" arguement. Every day there are Americans being forceably disarmed and placed at the mercy of criminals is one day too long.
The notion "if we lose the case all is lost" I think is bunkum.

If I had a choice between a SCOTUS "win" in which "Every American has a consitutional right, subject to limitations, to bear, in their home, with a trigger lock, a 22 caliber bolt action arm." and a flat out, "No Rights, None at all." I'd take the second any day of the week. At least the latter might jolt some of the more patriotic sheeple into realizing, "They actually ARE coming after my duck and deer guns."
Boston Tea Party describes it well in his Gun Bible, the Gun owners in the US that would turn in their firearms and comply with the next fusilade of common sense gun control laws, ought to sell their firearms to more resolute fellows.

atek3
 
Graystar:
Neither suit has a snowball's chance of winning.
We need to do something in S.Ct. and keep hitting S.Ct. with good cases -- to right the injustices being perpetrated against people like you in Brooklyn. Absent S.Ct. help, Brooklyn Americans such as yourself haven't a snowball's chance.

FYI, I once thought as you do. I hope you'll review your limiting beliefs and faith in what's left of the system enough to at least lend moral support to groups working to right what is happening with the thugs wearing badges in The Big Apple.
 
Graystar, I read your first post in that thread:
We must forget about the Second Amendment and work to establish an independent right to carry firearms for personal defense. It is this right that has been lost in the shuffle. All cases that depend on the Second Amendment will always fail.
It's really way wrong, and it'd take a long discussion to have it. Suffice it to say that S.Ct. hasn't heard a true 2A case since 1939, and that miscarriage of justice wasn't anywhere near a fair hearing on 2A. If you think 2A doesn't apply to individuals, then you must think 1A doesn't apply against individuals, too. That's incorrect.

You want "right to carry firearms for personal defense"? That's the "bear" part of 2A.

Have faith, or at least study some more. There are mountains of valid, rational data defying your belief. I just can't spare the time to go into it to any extent as I know the conversation could take roughly 14 eons if you really believe as you do.

At least look at the very words of the Founders on the Second Amendment. They flatly object to your idea.
 
Shamaya, there was a lot more written after the first post. You'd have to read it all to get my complete view.

You say that "There are mountains of valid, rational data defying your belief." Why is it then that we have the 5th Circuit, 9th Circuit, 2nd Circuit, Supreme Court, and various other courts rejecting such "mountains" of "rational data"? Could the mountains of which you speak really be molehills?

As I pointed out in the other thread, you have to be careful about how you interpret the words of the Founding Fathers. The Founding Fathers were lawyers. These are the same guys that wrote "that all men are created equal" while at the same time keeping slaves. There's no such thing as "plain language" when it comes to lawyers.

If you think 2A doesn't apply to individuals, then you must think 1A doesn't apply against individuals, too.
No, your interpretation of what I think is wrong. The Bill of Rights was written to insure that the Federal Government would not cause the same grievances the the English monarchy caused. These grievances were laid out in the Declaration of Independence (for example - DOI: "For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us"...BOR: "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.")

I've already done tons of study on this. I doubt there's anything anyone can show me to change my point of view.

It is foolhardy to expect a court to accept your interpretation of law over that which has already been established. For any 2nd Amendment suit to be successful, you must first convince the court that the established interpretation is wrong. Nowhere in the Silveira v. Lockyer briefs did I see such an argument made. Instead, all I see in these suits is the presentation, as an established fact, of a personal right to keep and bear arms. So far, it seems to be the same with these new suits. This approach will *always* lose until such a fact is actually established.
 
For any 2nd Amendment suit to be successful, you must first convince the court that the established interpretation is wrong. Nowhere in the Silveira v. Lockyer briefs did I see such an argument made.
Stick around for the certiorari petition. Gary Gorski told the San Fran reporter it'd be submitted by the end of this week. Then stick around to watch what happens when Miller is exposed like never before. The early filings on Silveira scared lots of people. What's happening now has given me the first ray of hope I've had in quite a while -- more so than Emerson ever did. Stay tuned.
 
Here's another take on the issue.



Group Suing DC Over Gun Ban Shuns NRA Involvement
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief
May 06, 2003

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - District of Columbia residents suing the D.C. government over its 1976 gun ban said Monday they do not want their lawsuit combined with a somewhat similar suit filed by the National Rifle Association (NRA).

Robert Levy, a Georgetown University law professor and constitutional scholar at the Cato Institute, said his clients are "just perfectly situated to make the best case possible in the jurisdiction that has the worst laws possible.

"The NRA, in our view, is just simply fouling the waters" Levy told CNSNews.com. "They are prolonging the resolution of the case and introducing all sorts of extraneous causes of action and bringing [Attorney General John] Ashcroft into the case when he has no business in the case."

As CNSNews.com previously reported, Levy is litigating the Feb. 10 civil claim by Shelly Parker, Dick Anthony Heller, Tom Palmer, Gillian St. Lawrence, Tracey Ambeau and George Lyon that the District of Columbia and D.C. Mayor Anthony Williams have violated their constitutional right to own and possess firearms under the Second Amendment by maintaining and enforcing the de facto ban on private ownership of guns.

The NRA's lawsuit - brought on behalf of Sandra Seegars, Gardine Hailes, Absalom Jordan, Jr., Carmela Brown and Robert Hemphill - also claims that the D.C. gun ban violates the Second Amendment. But the Seegars suit names four additional "causes of action" for the court to consider.

The Seegars suit claims that the D.C. gun ban violates the Fifth Amendment protection against being deprived of property without due process, as well as the provision dealing with "equal protection" under the law. The NRA also claims the D.C. law violates the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and imposes regulations that are not "usual and reasonable" as required elsewhere in D.C. law.

NRA attorneys want to combine the Seegars suit with the Parker action. Levy has filed a motion to block that consolidation.

"The NRA lawsuit contains all sorts of extraneous claims - unrelated to the Second Amendment - that will, in our view, first fail; second, give the court, if it wishes, a way to circumvent [addressing] the Second Amendment - which is the guts of what we want to accomplish in this case; and third, delay the case," Levy argued.

Ted Novin, a spokesman for the NRA, told CNSNews.com Monday afternoon that the group could not comment on Levy's objections yet.

"We're in the process of filing a document with the court and, when it's filed," he said, "we'll be free to comment on it."

Ashcroft named as co-defendant in NRA lawsuit

In addition to the government of the District of Columbia, the NRA lawsuit also named U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft as a defendant. Levy said he had considered doing that as well, but decided against it.

"There's no basis on which to include Ashcroft as a defendant," Levy argued. "He prosecutes felonies in D.C., not misdemeanors."

The law Levy is challenging imposes misdemeanor penalties for violations, meaning the "Corporate Counsel" for the District of Columbia - similar to a city attorney - prosecutes violations. Levy is not arguing that the Second Amendment protects a criminal's possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime, only that law-abiding citizens have that protection.

Levy pointed out other negative factors brought about by including Ashcroft as a defendant.

"You prolong the resolution of this case," he explained. "Any time you bring the feds in, they have an automatic 60 days to respond.

"Our case is ready to be ruled on, and we didn't want that kind of a delay," he added.

Political considerations are also in play in the decision, perhaps more so than in any case in recent history.

"Ashcroft is friendly to an 'individual rights' view of the Second Amendment," Levy said.

"If Ashcroft wanted to weigh in on our side of this case, the Justice Department is perfectly capable of filing an amicus brief or asking the court for an opportunity to intervene on our side," he continued. "But, by including him as an adversary, that sets the wrong tone altogether."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=//Nation//archive//200305//NAT20030506b.html
 
And here is what a REAL attack on the NRA looks like.


NRA: The sniper's ally


Palm Beach Post Editorial
Sunday, May 4, 2003



NRA members gathered in Orlando last month and wiped away tears as they waved goodbye to Charlton Heston, afflicted with Alzheimer's. Yet extremists in the group shed no tears over the number of cold, dead hands resulting from the NRA's rabid lobbying. Victims, it has become clear, include those shot down by John Lee Malvo and John Muhammad in last years's sniper attacks.

Gov. Bush, who thanked NRA members for electing his brother, did not explain why he panders to a lobby that has blocked effective enforcement of gun laws. Lawmakers serving the National Rifle Association have so crippled agents for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms that gun dealers can ignore federal law without fear of facing consequences. The situation at Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, Wash, proves the point. After successfully suing the ATF for records, The Seattle Times last week reported in detail the string of violations that should have shut down Bull's Eye long before Malvo shoplifted from that store the $1,600 sniper's rifle he used to terrorize the Washington, D.C., area.

It began in 1994, with owner Brian Borgelt selling an assault rifle at a gun show without the required background check. As punishment, he got a note in his file. In May 2000, an audit showed Mr. Borgelt unable to account for 421 guns, a quarter of his inventory. He got a warning. It continued last year, when agents traced the Bushmaster to Bull's Eye and found that Borgelt never filed the required notice of theft, even though the weapon was stolen from a prominent display case.

At that time, Mr. Borgelt couldn't account for 78 firearms. Another warning. Bull's Eye is in business to this day, though the shop displays all the ATF red flags: It is among the "leaders" in weapons traced to crimes, in weapons sold in bulk, and in speed between the weapon's sale and the weapon's use in a street crime.

Bull's Eye, and stores like it, operate because Congress, heeding the NRA, has said that ATF can inspect stores no more than once a year and that nearly all records violations are mere misdemeanors. It's like knowing where Al-Qaeda has weapons and not trying to get them.

When NRA apologists in Congress, such as Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach, talk about protecting legal products sold legally, remember that Congress has made it legal to sell guns in dangerous ways with crippled enforcement of the few rules that do exist. A former ATF agent says the agency is "afraid" because "they have no backing in Congress or this administration." The result, because of shops like Bull's Eye, is easy access by criminals and terrorists to firearms. When that sniper rifle was pried from Lee Malvo's hands, it had the NRA's fingerprints on it.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/accent...ions/sunday/opinion_e32baed683fa00ef1040.html
 
Here's your answser.

Still waiting.

It's really easy to answer my last post.

[Y] or [N]
Tempest may choose to answer you differently. Here's my answer: http://KeepAndBearArms.com/nra/guncontrol.htm

You started off lying about me and KABA, then lied about NRA. Learn some manners, for goodness sake.

PS. I said I was done with you because you bore me. But I actually must thank you -- for inspiring me. When I get time to finish that piece off, I'll dedicate it to you and every other NRA Gun Control Apologist like you. So... thank you.
 
The petition is nothing.
"The first 20 pages or so of the Petition often lead a Justice to conclude whether or not the case will get his/her thumbs up."

That's from someone who has won unanimous Supreme Court decisions and has victories in 11 of 12 federal circuit courts. You may have better qualifications than I do to disagree with him. The Petition is compelling.

The brief will be published online, by us, the day it is submitted. We'll make it public before the Court does. When we do, you can download a copy and rip it to shreds if you want to. ;)
 
Hope this does not violate forum policy...

The only comment I want to make about this...discussion...is to remind people that in an urinating contest, both parties get covered in urine.

Gosh, doesn't this just show our best side to the world.
 
It's really easy to answer my last post.

[Y] or [N]
Sheesh! Impatient, aren't you? I was having satellite problems, and couldn't get on. So sorry!

The answer is: it's completely irrelevant to the issue and a convenient excuse.
 
You may have better qualifications than I do to disagree with him.
No, I don't have any qualifications at all...just a hobby for me. In any case, I am interested in reading the petition. Especially since I doubt the court will grant certiorari, which means there won't be a brief.
 
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