CCW at the Post Office

[swinokur]

Can you point out where that distinction is made in the CFR?

You have to carry the firearm into the post office to ship it, don't you?
__________________

google is your friend.

carry in a box for shipping is not considered carry for purposes of the fed. regulation. BATFE says its ok to ship long guns via USPS. I assume that makes shipping separate from carry on your person

l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

shipping in a box is neither open or concealed carry

from the CFR weapons not included in prohibition

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes

www.batfe.gov

again, google is a verb too.

 

[swinokur]

From the NRAILA web page

This last point—and especially the definition of "federal facility"—may be the one most likely to cause confusion for visitors. The National Park Service has indicated that, according to its apparently broad interpretation of the law, the law prohibits firearms not only in buildings (such as visitor centers, ranger stations, and administrative offices) but also in other areas that are regularly staffed by federal employees (such as developed caves and gated outdoor performance areas). However, NPS officials stress that all prohibited locations will be marked with signs.

The ban on carry in "federal facilities" does not apply to buildings that are located in parks, but not staffed by the federal government—such as many restaurants, lodges and gift shops. However, private operators of those places are free to make their own rules subject to state law.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

All you can do is decide for yourself the level of risk your willing to take to exercise your 2nd Amen rights.

 

[sig228]

Lets go back to the OP.

If I'm carrying in my car in the PO parking lot or in the actual PO, I would have to be busted by the Postal Police, correct?

Anyone ever heard of THAT happening?

Like Deltaboy said, you need to assess your own level of risk.

 

[brboyer]

Lets go back to the OP.

If I'm carrying in my car in the PO parking lot or in the actual PO, I would have to be busted by the Postal Police, correct?

Anyone ever heard of THAT happening?

Like Deltaboy said, you need to assess your own level of risk.

Uh, no.

Local LEO can detain folks for the feds.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If I'm carrying in my car in the PO parking lot or in the actual PO, I would have to be busted by the Postal Police, correct?

Anyone ever heard of THAT happening?...

[1] As brboyer pointed out, the local police can detain for federal officers.

[2] Just because no one here has heard of it happening, doesn't mean it hasn't and doesn't mean it won't.

[3] So maybe we have our test case volunteer?

 

[david58]

In my ccw class, it was said that the PO is not a federal facility - remember, the PO now is a "privately run" organization. The illegal to carry arms signage is down, now replaced by a sign that indicates using a weapon to commit a crime is a no-no.

I know of folks that carry concealed in the PO, and believe it is no problem. And, again, my instructor stated it is not a federal facility any longer.

 

[NavyLCDR]

In my ccw class, it was said that the PO is not a federal facility - remember, the PO now is a "privately run" organization. The illegal to carry arms signage is down, now replaced by a sign that indicates using a weapon to commit a crime is a no-no.

I know of folks that carry concealed in the PO, and believe it is no problem. And, again, my instructor stated it is not a federal facility any longer.

And my response would be, as respectful as I could present it, SO WHAT?!?

Guns are still prohibited, not only IN the Post Office, but on all property controlled by the Post Office by 39 CFR 232.1(l)! It does not matter if 18 USC 930 (Federal Property) applies to the Post Office or not. It is clear that 39 CFR 232.1(l) does!

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Official purposes in the CFR above means to lawfully mail a gun (long guns are OK for regular Joes to mail, handguns must be mailed by FFL's), or by a person carrying a gun in the performance of their official duties such as sworn law enforcement officers and military members carrying firearms issued to them for the performance of their duties. Joe Schmoe with a concealed weapons license carrying his personal firearm is not an "official purpose" no matter how much we think it should be.

So, may I ask, what exactly is your point, david58? Even if the Federal Property prohibition does not apply to the Post Office, and the Post Office claims that it does, the Postal Service Federal regulations still prohibit the carrying AND STORAGE on Post Office property! I guess maybe your point would be that your CCW instructor was feeding you how he/she thought things SHOULD BE, vice how they actually are in Federal regulations!

 

[UpTheIrons]

In my ccw class, it was said that the PO is not a federal facility - remember, the PO now is a "privately run" organization. The illegal to carry arms signage is down, now replaced by a sign that indicates using a weapon to commit a crime is a no-no.

I know of folks that carry concealed in the PO, and believe it is no problem. And, again, my instructor stated it is not a federal facility any longer.

(Emphasis added above)

Frankly, what your instructor said does not matter. What matters is the Penal Code. My instructor also said some things that were clearly contradicted by the state penal code, so one cannot go by what an instructor, a cop one knows, or anyone else says, unless it is backed up by a citation from the penal code.

Sure, there are hundreds of people who carry concealed on P.O. property every day. Good for them. Let's just hope that "concealed" always means "concealed" then, because the federal pen is not a fun place to be.

 

[Dokkalfar]

l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

This part is where much of the contention comes in. I haven't seen any court cases supporting either side in this situation, but the point is that being officially licensed (CHL) means you can officially carry. And the official purpose of the CHL is to allow the sheep to legally carry a concealed firearm. However, detractors claim this part doesn't apply to CHLs, its only an official purpose if you're a police officer or similarly licensed individual, not including CHL carriers.
Sure, everyone agrees 'official' purposes include mailing a firearm to another person/manufacturer, but your official license is what's debatable. :/

Uh, no.

Local LEO can detain folks for the feds.

For now. Give it a bit of time, and if the court rules in favor of the DoJ in their case against Arizona, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people claiming the local PD can't enforce any other Federal Law either!

 

[Frank Ettin]

This part is where much of the contention comes in. I haven't seen any court cases supporting either side in this situation, but the point is that being officially licensed (CHL) means you can officially carry....

Of course one might make that argument, but I doubt that it will get you anywhere. Are you volunteering to be a test case?

 

[357reloading]

Seems like a lot of paper work and lawyer fees. Leave in the Car or at home. Or give to mother in law.

 

[Ronsch]

It is pretty funny...I see security guards carrying in the USPS, picking up the cash deposits (I guess), and the all of the signs posted around the USPS say NO carrying unless it is LEO in official capacity.

I see security guards going in that do not have any contract with the USPS carrying...

 

[rainbowbob]

Sure, there are hundreds of people who carry concealed on P.O. property every day. Good for them. Let's just hope that "concealed" always means "concealed" then, because the federal pen is not a fun place to be.

This topic comes regularly of course, but I've never seen any cases cited in which someone was actually prosecuted merely for CCW on P.O. property (absent of other criminal activity).

Does anyone here know of one?

 

[mljdeckard]

I deal with carrying to the post office by....not going. I haven't had a reason to go in a long time, several years. I think I did go to one to renew my passport. But Fedex-Kinkos, UPS, and online postage have eliminated any reason I previously might have had to go to the post office.

 

[GojuBrian]

razorback2003 wrote

I do carry concealed so no one knows anyway. We do not have a state law against carrying on fed property. I read about a guy in VA who was fined fifty bucks for carrying openly as a test case, so who knows. I'm not asking the people at my post office for permission because like all govt employees they'll say 'no'. It is better for them not to know what I do.

Are you in Arkansas? I take it from your username you are, as am I, but I could be wrong. If you are you should read up on where you can and cannot carry.

http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions/rs/rs_chl_law.html

Where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited:


ACA §5-73-306

No license to carry a concealed handgun issued pursuant to this subchapter authorizes any person to carry a concealed handgun into:
(1) Any police station, sheriff's station, or Department of Arkansas State Police station;
(2) Any Arkansas Highway Police Division of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department facility;
(3) (A) Any building of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department or onto grounds adjacent to any building of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department.
(B) However, subdivision (3)(A) of this section does not apply to a rest area or weigh station of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department;
(4) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
(5) Any courthouse;
(6) (A) Any courtroom.
(B) However, nothing in this subchapter precludes a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon into his or her courtroom;
(7) Any polling place;
(8) Any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity;
(9) Any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly;
(10) Any state office;
(11) Any athletic event not related to firearms;
(12) Any portion of an establishment, except a restaurant as defined in § 3-9-402, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises;
(13) Any portion of an establishment, except a restaurant as defined in § 3-9-402, where beer or light wine is consumed on the premises;
(14) Any school, college, community college, or university campus building or event, unless for the purpose of participating in an authorized firearms-related activity;
(15) Inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person is prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the passenger terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking the firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft;
(16) Any church or other place of worship;
(17) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;
(18) Any place where a parade or demonstration requiring a permit is being held, and the licensee is a participant in the parade or demonstration; or
(19) (A) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.
(B) (i) If the place does not have a roadway entrance, there shall be a written notice placed anywhere upon the premises of the place.
(ii) In addition to the requirement of subdivision (19)(B)(i) of this section, there shall be at least one (1) written notice posted within every three (3) acres of a place with no roadway entrance.
(C) A written notice as described in subdivision (19)(A) of this section is not required for a private home.
(D) Any licensee entering a private home shall notify the occupant that the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun.

It's better for you to know the laws and abide by them rather than take your chances with possible prison time imo.

 

[PTK]

Seems like a lot of paper work and lawyer fees. Leave in the Car or at home. Or give to mother in law.

That's not legal - the parking lot is USPS controlled property.

 

[KBintheSLC]

The PO does nothing to actually enforce this policy... unless you consider the dinky sign to be "enforcement". They have no guard, no gate, no metal detectors, etc. that would actually prevent an armed criminal from entering. As far as I am concerned, a law is only as effective as it's level of enforcement. If they don't care enough to enforce it, why should anyone care enough to obey it? This is basically the same for any "no-guns" policy we might encounter. I will gladly abide if they do their part, but if they expect me to disarm just because they put up a paper sign... ugh.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If they don't care enough to enforce it, why should anyone care enough to obey it?...

A fine sentiment, but it's not going to be any kind of a defense if they decide to enforce it against you. Maybe we have another volunteer for a test case.

 

[Darkhorse]

When I lived in Florida I saw a few post offices that had unattended metal detectors at the incoming door, Of course, concealed-carry is MUCH more common in Florida than in California.

 

[rainbowbob]

Maybe we have another volunteer for a test case.

Has this law never before been tested, i.e., never attempted to be enforced?

As far as I am concerned, a law is only as effective as it's level of enforcement. If they don't care enough to enforce it, why should anyone care enough to obey it?

I agree with this in principal (although of course I would NEVER suggest I or anyone else has ever disregarded the law).

 

[Frank Ettin]

Has this law never before been tested, i.e., never attempted to be enforced?

Actually, we may not know. It's entirely possible that it has been, but they were not high profile cases or news worthy.

 

[writerinmo]

This is why I ship everything from my house and schedule a pickup, usually using UPS or getting the free flat rate boxes delivered from the PO...

 

[UpTheIrons]

This topic comes regularly of course, but I've never seen any cases cited in which someone was actually prosecuted merely for CCW on P.O. property (absent of other criminal activity).

Does anyone here know of one?

I don't know of one, but in this case, for me, it is better to be "safe than sorry." I don't have the financial werewithal to be the test case, so even though the chance of being 'outed' are infinitesmal, I'm not gonna risk it.

 

[zoom6zoom]

I saw a few post offices that had unattended metal detectors

I've seen quite a few with anti-theft sensors, which many folks mistake for metal detectors. Never seen an actual metal detector at a PO.