CCW - Higher Education

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

The other day I was reading the thread "May not carry concealed" by Colt Smith. This got me thinking, what about those of us who have our CCW permits and also attend college. It was pointed out in the above mentioned thread that if an establishment prohibits the carrying of weapons, concealed or otherwise, we could always take our business elsewhere.

However, the vast majority of us don't have that option when it comes to attending college. We can't all pack our bags and head to Utah for school. So, in the same spirit of questioning, who is ultimately responsible for our protection if we are banned from carrying on campus? Is the campus liable for our injuries, even liable to our families for our deaths?

The University that I attend created a "task force" for safety shortly after the V.Tech shootings. They came up with all sorts of expensive and grandiose ideas, none of which would qualify as a deterrent. Their collective mentality is passive reaction. The problem is that injuries/deaths would occur before help arrives if we were to experience a V.Tech style shooting. So, what say the public? Are there any College/University board members who would like to chime in on this issue? Care to answer why I have to pay a lot of money to attend school but made to sit in a class with the proverbial target on my back?

Remember, we are talking about College/Universities, not high school, although that in itself is another issue.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Care to answer why I have to pay a lot of money to attend school but made to sit in a class with the proverbial target on my back?

You don't. No one is forcing you to do that. Additionally, saying that you are sitting there was a proverbial target on your back is a bit melodramatic.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Are there any College/University board members who would like to chime in on this issue? Care to answer why I have to pay a lot of money to attend school but made to sit in a class with the proverbial target on my back?

I say this as a PhD. student who is looking for University employment in the future:

The reason you have to put up with so much crap is because most universities are run by a very specific set of liberal. Most of the decision are made by people in their late 40s-early 60s who have been working in a sheltered environment most of their lives. They are convinced that the world we live in is still that of the late 1980s-early 1990s and that everything can be solved with compassion, a little understanding, and bureaucracy. If there's one thing they all know for certain, it's that throwing money at problems makes them appear to go away...that and the fact that ceding power to the student body is a bad idea.

I think many academics don't like the idea that a student can be empowered by something other than a university.

I personally think modern academia creates its own problems as well. You have many teachers who are psychologically abusive towards students and will stop at nothing to get their agenda across. They often admit to this but it's usually phrased as: "Fostering a learning environment where students and teachers can engage in active and heated discussion".

Allowing students to carry on campus also forces a school to admit that the social policy they've been teaching for decades is somehow a grand failure. People like Cho aren't "misunderstood", they're freaking crazy. Therapy and drugs can't fix everything, unlike what the brochure for the University Health Centre tells you.

I've long held the view that academia needs a social enema. I think that's coming and it's coming soon. I think parents are sick of paying outrageous fees for universities and not getting "results". Once this goes into motion, you will see things like CCW on campuses. The governor of Texas is pushing for campus CCW in the next session. This will promote more active discussion about this issue. On top of that we as the pro-2A community, need to go on the offensive and psychologically dig as to the real reason academia is so remiss to allow guns on campus. If students are so immature and psychotic that lectures will become bloodbaths then maybe, just maybe, they're not mature enough or of sound enough mind to be in college at all.

 

[cpaspr]

RAMI -

You didn't tell what state you are in, but some (such as Oregon) do not disallow, by law, concealed carry on school campuses by licensees. However, the schools themselves (such as the University of Oregon) often do have rules against it. If you are in such a state, your permit is valid, and your weapon is legal.

However, as a student, you must then decide if you want to risk getting kicked out if caught carrying in violation of university rules. It's a tough call, but one that only each student can answer.

 

[camslam]

Quote:
Care to answer why I have to pay a lot of money to attend school but made to sit in a class with the proverbial target on my back?

You don't. No one is forcing you to do that. Additionally, saying that you are sitting there was a proverbial target on your back is a bit melodramatic.

No offense Jorg, but I don't think that is melodramatic at all. I'm not saying that you need to go to college with a paranoid mindset, but how many school shootings are there a year now?

We just had one last week in Phoenix where 3 people were shot in a computer lab. Didn't get much play nationally because nobody died, but if I were a college student today, I think it would be very smart to get your CCW permit and carry.

When it isn't against the laws of your state, carry, but do it VERY DISCREETLY. Also be prepared to get expelled if someone finds out.

If it is against the laws of your state. Don't carry. Go somewhere else for school or keep your fingers crossed, because if someone with a gun comes into your classroom, about all you are going to have is a smile and a prayer.

 

[docmagnum357]

+ 1 prince yamato. If these students, supposedly America's best and brightest, aren't to be trusted with a deadly weapon, then what kind of education are their parents paying for? Eighteen year olds who do not choose the higher education path are serving our country with distinction in hot and stinky places all over the world, and all of them are armed.

I would really like to preach right now, and show you from the Bible what is wrong with these people, but now is not the place or the time. If I can leave you with just one thing, though, it would be this. Our country needs leaders. Not talking heads with hundred dollar haircuts and a bunch of dental work, not ivory tower theorists, not idiots who belive the sky is falling because of your suv. Those eighteen year olds I mentioned above, the ones in the hot and stinky places, have learned more about leadership during basic training than all those idiots in college boardrooms have learned in their lives.

 

[camslam]

Our country needs leaders. Not talking heads with hundred dollar haircuts and a bunch of dental work, not ivory tower theorists, not idiots who belive the sky is falling because of your suv. Those eighteen year olds I mentioned above, the ones in the hot and stinky places, have learned more about leadership during basic training than all those idiots in college boardrooms have learned in their lives.

Sorry Doc, that just doesn't fit the criteria the ruling elite, the liberal elite, the mainstream media, and both major political parties in our country are looking for in the agenda they push on everyone.

Sidenote: I quit giving money to my alma mater years ago because of the crap I was subjected to while there and the crap they still keep teaching. That is really the only way universities will get the message, when their precious funds to pay these overpriced lecturers are depleted.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Jorg, I don't really know what to say. Your comment is incredulous and leaves me flat out speechless.

Prince, I couldn't agree more. My wife has stated to me that if we do experience a V.Tech style shooting and I am injured or even killed, God forbid, then she will sue the University.

I've been blessed to not have the types of professors you mentioned. Although, I was in a social problems class a couple of semesters ago with a professor who was very anti-gun. His entire argument was that we'd live in a better place if all guns were confiscated. He would not budge on this issue no matter what I said, no matter how many different Sheriff's department stats, etc.

Cam, I live in Missouri. Missouri Statute 571.107: "No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

(Subsection 10):
Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;"

It's a start, but it still leaves me defenseless in class.

 

[Tyris]

You do have the option to not comply with their rules.
Just do not reveal it to anyone.

I successfully practiced this throughout college and graduate school, and the sky did not fall. Things get interesting when you dont respect their authority over you.

-T

 

[TAB]

If you think a gun is the only way to defend yourself... drop out of school, its not helping.( sarcism)

A gun is just a tool, like any other tool with out training it is useless.( actually with out training a gun is a liablity)

 

[dmazur]

The best I can offer is these guys -

http://concealedcampus.org/

They seem to have one of the best thought-out platforms out there.

They support education as the key to reversing the loss of rights that has occurred in the recent past.

Also, they strongly support the need to be a "good guy", the calm, rational person that presents a positive image.

So, while I'm not a student, I can recommend these guys as a resource.

 

[camslam]

Rami - Looks like you are pretty much screwed on those state statutes. When it mentions places of higher learning, I'm quite sure any administrators, professors, district attorney's, and students would consider a concealed weapon a big no no.

I feel bad for you and all of the victims of the next and future school shootings.

I would never advocate or suggest breaking the law, but I have discussed with many people the likelihood of being charged with something, if a shooting took place and a person with a CCW permit was able to stop or limit the carnage. We all came to the conclusion it would depend on the state you were in and the circumstances surrounding the shooting. Yes it is against the law, but did the end justify the means?

I still think it would be tough to prosecute, in most states, someone that was able to stop or limit a massacre.

College kids, school teachers, and many others still have to live with being in gun free zones which make them sitting targets.

It wasn't long ago that the guy shot up a city council meeting somewhere in Missouri and the funny thing was they had a city ordinance banning any weapons from entering city property. One of the councilman was throwing a chair to try to stop the gunman. If I had a sicker sense of humor, I would have called those idiots and asked them how that no-gun policy worked out.

Anti's will never understand a couple of things.

1. Your right to self defense doesn't end when you walk into some building.

2. CCW permit holders are among the most law abiding people in the country. They really aren't a threat to you.

Good luck and stay safe.

And for those that dismiss these school shootings as random and rare, why don't you ask the parents and children of dead students and teachers if the rarity of these events helped them in some way.

 

[TAB]

would never advocate or suggest breaking the law, but I have discussed with many people the likelihood of being charged with something, if a shooting took place and a person with a CCW permit was able to stop or limit the carnage. We all came to the conclusion it would depend on the state you were in and the circumstances surrounding the shooting. Yes it is against the law, but did the end justify the means?

Any DA that does not Charge some one in a case like that, is braking thier oath, they took when they entered that office and should be removed from duty. Frankly, they should also be disbared.

and just to counter your points about antis( I rather dislike that term)

1 a gun does not equal Selfdefence, never has, never will.

2 So are lots of other groups of people that have diffrent types of permits. There are also plenty of bad permit holders out there.

 

[JKimball]

dmazur, thanks for the link. I watched the first video clip and learned that 6 of the students in the classrooms that were attacked at VA Tech had guns in their cars or homes. 2 of them were military, 2 were ROTC, and all of them were licensed and trained to use their weapons. If the college hadn't prevented them from being armed they very well could have been able to prevent many of the deaths.

 

[JKimball]

Here's a thought:

What is it about a cop or security guard that makes it so that Universities don't mind that they carry guns on campus? (Ok, I realize some universities don't let them carry either, but some do, right?)

What if you could get administration (and the legislature where necessary) to identify the answer to that question, and then actually quantify it in such a way that you could establish some requirements that must be met for a student to be allowed to carry. (Ideally it wouldn't include graduating from the police academy.)

Maybe that takes us down a road we don't want to go down, but maybe it is at least a start.

Maybe they require a weeks worth of firearm and use of force training, an in depth shooting test (IDPA style with a timer and with innocents in the field of fire, etc.) Or maybe just the same shooting test that the local law enforcement needs to pass. Maybe a screening for mental stability? (Do they do that for cops?) Maybe a written essay about why you should be allowed to carry. Maybe require some character referrals. Maybe they require a couple volunteer hours with campus security each week.

How about making exceptions for ROTC or members of the Military?

Part of me hates to even suggest some of these "special requirements." But the other part of me thinks it is would be worth it if that is what it took to get more guns on campus.

 

[dmazur]

I have a hard time conditioning a basic civil right on some type of qualification. I'm aware many states have training requirements for CCW, and that one probable reason for Washington's CCW permit not being recognized by more states is that Washington has no such requirements.

I have just begun to read about this, so that makes me a noob.

I think I understand that, in addition to the zealous antis out there, we also have those who are simply concerned about liability. Maybe they're employers, and they perceive that present law wouldn't protect them from a catastrophic lawsuit. All they have is their Employee Assistance Program (to handle disgruntled workers) and a no-guns policy to protect them.

They care not $0.02 about the safety of their employees, just liability.

This attitude probably extends to colleges as well.

So, if a nationwide CCW standard were to arise from all of this, with training requirements, would we have created a special class of "genuine good guy" who is allowed CCW in places where others are not? Would those who fail to achieve this level of proficiency have any rights to self-defense?

Maybe the situation is like driver's licenses. Except for commercial vehicles, very few employers have a requirement for any proof of skill other than having a valid state driver's license, and then you can drive company cars.

So, if employers (or colleges) just accept the state's certification of CCW as a "good guy", that might be similar to accepting the driver's license.

Lose the CCW and you lose the right to carry at work, (campus.)

This would be a "graduated" scale of rights, depending on your status as a good citizen:

• Felon - no rights
• Law abiding but fail CCW training - guns at home only
• Law abiding and pass CCW training - full rights

To go along with this, laws limiting liability would have to follow. And, there should be funding for school gun education similar to driver's education.

And, at present, I believe we can be good ambassadors, work within existing law, and be vocal about positive outcome gun incidents.

There are many of these. The biased media doesn't report most of them, or slants them. Maybe we can set up some kind of honest reporting clearinghouse for pro-gun incidents. (?)

I believe progress is going to be made.

 

[green country shooter]

JKimball - we gave that a try in Oklahoma.

A bill passed one house of our legislature with training requirements for campus CCW as a way of giving some cover to those who wanted to vote for it. It wasn't that we thought it was a great idea, it was just a way of dealing with some of the objections.

Unfortunately the other house was controlled by Democrats and the bill was assigned to a committee chairman who was very anti gun and so the bill died. I don't think it would have passed the other house anyway.

One reason the bill failed is that there was another bill to lower the CCW age to 18, which took away our "maturity" argument.

The only good result is that we at least got people talking and thinking about it. That's the first step.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

GCS, I don't really agree to let 18 year old kids carry concealed exactly due to the maturity level. I know, my 18 year old is mature enough to handle it.......a new can of worms. However, there is absolutely no reason to ban guns on campus when dealing with CCW permit holders.

The fight is against the antis. They know little to nothing on what we have to go through to get our CCW permits. They have no idea that some of us frequent the ranges far more than what is required of LEOs. I've been shooting at the range with LEOs watching me. They've all commented that I could easily pass LE shooter qualification.

So the excuse that we don't train as much as "professionals" is really just that......an excuse.

 

[Pilot]

"May not carry concealed" by Colt Smith

Anybody else see the irony in that name?

 

[mgkdrgn]

"who is ultimately responsible for our protection"

Simple. You are, always. If anyone believes "the school" is going to "protect" them, they are at best delusional. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Presented with the "can't carry here" policy, you have three choices.

1) Ignore the rule and carry anyway so that you can protect yourself if need be, and suffer the consequences. Considering that "if need be" does pop up, the other option is that you'll be dead, how much worse can the "consequences" be.

2) Hope (and this is actually a pretty good bet) that "if need be" will never happen and adhere to the policy.

3) Go to school someplace that doesn't have that policy.

3a) Work at changing the policy where you go to school. Chances of success are minimal, at best, and could take far longer than you're time there.

 

[camslam]

Tab:

and just to counter your points about antis( I rather dislike that term)

Would you care to share what it is about that term you dislike so much?

1 a gun does not equal Selfdefence, never has, never will.

2 So are lots of other groups of people that have diffrent types of permits. There are also plenty of bad permit holders out there.

1. I never said that a gun = self defense. But for most people with any form of common sense, they realize a gun is one of, if not the most, effective forms of self defense. There is a reason why it is called an equalizer. Is there some part of that which escapes your understanding? What would you like to have as a form of self defense if some nut came into your classroom with a gun? I'm all ears.

2. Do you have some sort of problem with people that have CCW permits? My point was there is little to fear from a group of people that subject themselves to expense of time, effort, and money. As well as submitting to an FBI background check and fingerprints. While there is no perfect group out there, on average, I would love to see a group more law abiding as a whole than CCW permit holders. Not really sure what your problem is though?

How about a big old glass of calm down juice?

Edited to add: I just got done making a quick review of some of your other posts Tab, and you my friend definitely have some interesting thoughts and positions on things. Can't say I agree with many of them, but its still a free country.

 

[TwitchALot]

I've been blessed to not have the types of professors you mentioned. Although, I was in a social problems class a couple of semesters ago with a professor who was very anti-gun. His entire argument was that we'd live in a better place if all guns were confiscated. He would not budge on this issue no matter what I said, no matter how many different Sheriff's department stats, etc.

You should have talked about this, you know, time, where uh, guns didn't exist.

Contrary to popular belief, there was a time in recorded human history where guns weren't around. If, as these gun control advocates argue, the world really would be a better place without guns, then the historical record before the existence of guns should prove them to be right.


It doesn't.

 

[Dale00]

One of the tactics of campus administrators and other anti campus concealed carry people is to frame the debate in terms of allowing "students" to carry. The term "students" immediately brings to mind irresponsible or immature stereotype. We need to reframe the debate - whenever they talk about giving students the right to carry - say no its not about "students" its about "responsible adults". Keep using the term "responsible adults" - 21 years old (most states) , criminal background check, mental health background check etc.

For example: "If your child were trapped in a college classroom with a madman who was shooting people, and the police were far away, would you support a responsible adult having a firearm with which to stop the madman?"

or "Why is it ok for a responsible adult to be able to carry a concealed firearm in the supermarket, on the street and in movie theaters but it's not ok for a responsible adult to conceal carry if they step across the boundary line of a college campus? Can you help me understand this?"

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Good point Dale. It is a requirement by law that one has to be 21 years old or older to get a Missouri permit.

I am a bit older than 21 years old and I have gone back to school. Despite what some have suggested, I don't have a choice in Missouri to attend a school which allows conceal carry as no school in Missouri allows it.

For those who say that I do have a choice, I'd be glad to hear it.

 

[romma]

Excellent point Dale00.