CCW quandry

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garyk/nm

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New Mexico, USA
I'm starting a new job tomorrow, as an employee of a University, which will require travel (in Univ vehicles) for 10 days at a time. Will be staying in a variety of motels in various small towns.
I specifically didn't ask about CCW, since that would be sure to give me the answer I don't want to hear. The policy booklet which I was given makes no mention of the subject (just sexual harrassment, drinking on the job, etc), but I am 99.9% certain that if I went looking, I would find something negative.
A very trusted friend gave the advice " it's easier to get forgiveness than permission", and I am inclined to go with that.
I am trying to balance the need for protection against possibly losing a really cool job.
Your opinions greatly appreciated.
 
This is a situation where I'll go along with the "concealed means concealed" crowd. I do not advocate that when the advice is given indicating that one should violate specific laws or signage, but in this case, you have an employer's personnel manual that does not prohibit the carry of a personal weapon for self-defense. So ... shut your pie hole and carry your personal weapon for self defense. Be sure you are legal (i.e. get a CCW if required by your state, be sure you comply with applicable laws regarding transport or carry in vehicles, etc.), and proceed.

If the worst occurs and you have to use the weapon for the intended purpose, the worst they can do is try to fire you, at which point you either grieve (if you're in a union) or go straight to the state labor board and file suit that your firing was unjustified because you were not violating any of the policies in the personnel manual.
 
Hawkmoon spelled it out very good, and you had enough forethought to not bring up the issue before you were hired.

Sort of boils down to "Don't ask, don't tell"! The only difference is that you seem to have the "edge", since you were given an employee policy booklet, and "guns" were not covered, either expressly or implicitly.

I would suggest that you try to document the FACTUAL info regarding your LEGAL carry on the campus when you start working there, and to keep your firearm 100% concealed at all times. If you are able to work "X" amount of months before it might become an "issue", then you'd be able to show that documented PROOF of your safe, responsible and LEGAL carrying procedures during those "X" amount of months.

Chances are that the MOST that the university would do would be to amend their employee policy to prohibit concealed firearms. On the other hand, if your firearm is never exposed or found out, "no harm, no foul"!
 
I'm with the "what they don't know won't hurt them" crowd

The last job I had specifically stated in their manual that firearms were not to be brought on company property. Including in your car in the parking lot.
It also stated that your locker and personal bags brought in could be subject to a search at anytime.

I chose to violate that policy flat out.
My personal safety is more important than ANY job.

I carried to work every single day from day one. I was never searched and never even asked. And EVERYONE knew I was a "gun-nut" and "rightwing wacko" (It was a SUPER liberal company)

If a situation would have come up where I would have been put on the spot. I would have simply refused any search and told them where they could stick their request. Promptly followed by my resignation.
No job is worth sacrificing my liberties. period

Now I just work for myself and I don't worry about such idiocy.
 
As many have said "What they don't know won't hurt them". That said it is incumbent upon you to make sure that what they don't know stays that way.

SILENCE IS YOUR FRIEND...

Don't talk about carrying - not even to those you trust. They may not mean to reveal that you carry but you never know when what you do may innocently leak out.

In today's predominantly anti-gun, cover your butt corporate and public employer atmosphere getting caught can have far reaching implications that one really doesn't want to have to deal with.
 
The last job I had specifically stated in their manual that firearms were not to be brought on company property. Including in your car in the parking lot.
It also stated that your locker and personal bags brought in could be subject to a search at anytime.

I chose to violate that policy flat out.
My personal safety is more important than ANY job.
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I took a job like that awhile back. Of course, they never give you the personnal manual until AFTER you start the job. I suppose they think then they have you by the short hairs. In my case, the company was a retail establishment in a strip mall at the edge of a rather disreputable part of a city my wife doesn't consider to be safe in at all. The store stayed open an hour later than any other business in the strip, they wanted me to work the closing shift, and they wouldn't allow me to bring a handgun, keep it in my locker during the day, and be armed as I locked the store and walked to my car.

I quit after three days. I don't believe in violating policies, I believe in trying to change them. The store manager backed me (she said), but "corporate" wouldn't allow any deviation from the policy. So I handed in my (unsigned) personnel manual and walked out.
 
If you'll be traveling with coworkers in the car be sure to keep your gear hidden. Short of that I'm not personally fond of the idea of unarmed stays in hotels/motels. If you absolutely can't lose this job though you'll have to weigh the risks for yourself.
 
It's no business of my employer what I store in my car - period.
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That's what a bunch of people in Oklahoma thought too. Doubly true of many since they just had their dove shotguns in the truck for after work. Didn't stop them from getting fired when their trucks were searched. Enough people complained that the OK Legislature passed a law stating that an employer can't stop an employee from legally having a firearm in their locked vehicle in the parking lot. The big companies then turned around and stopped the law from being implemented in federal court. Where I guess it will stay forever.

I personally wouldn't carry concealed on a university campus as an employee. I wouldn't want to lose a great job. But I would have a gun in my locked car. And that gun would travel with me if I went out of town.

Gregg
 
^^^
It's all in the perspective, eh?


I know I shouldn't have, but I went looking further (online policies and procedures) and not only do they not allow carry, on campus or "property" but it is considered "violent behavior" just to have a weapon on your person.
Who writes this s*** ?

Oh, well, it will remain in my suitcase unless I am in my motel room.
 
Gary --

You might wish to consult a labor attorney. If there is a personnel policies manual they hand to you and require that you sign and return to them, I believe those are the only policies they can legally hold over your head. That's your contract with them, and their contract with you. IANAL but it strikes me that anything beyond the personnel manual that they choose to put up on one or more web sites is just eyewash, and is NOT binding upon employees who are subject the the policies they agree to by signing and returning a copy of the personnel manual.

You don't have to even mention guns. The question could as easily relate to dress code. All you need to ask is, if there is a policy on a university web site that is NOT in the personnel policy manual I signed as a contract of employment ... does that policy apply to me or not?

It would take a very biased court, I think, to rule that an employer can ask you to agree to the policies in a personnal manual and so indicate by signing and returning it, then unilaterally expand the restrictions without notice to you by just posting on a web site somewhere. Most personnal manuals include a provision for revisions and updates, but they require that the employer notify you and that you sign a copy of the change to signify that you understand the change and agree to accept it.
 
I live in OHIO and we have specific language in our CCW law regarding this; please check your laws; IANAL; Here is the OHIO law: (NOTE: Bold/Italics/Underline is my emphasis specific to your case)
Sec. 2923.126. (B) … does not authorize the licensee to carry a firearm

A Police Station.
Sheriff’s Office
State Highway Patrol Station
Premises controlled by the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation,
State Correctional Institution, Jail, Workhouse, or other Detention Facility,
Airport Passenger Terminal,
School
Courthouse or building that Houses a Court.
Public or Private College/University (May keep locked in Vehicle in Parking lot)
House of Worship.
Child Day-Care Center.
Any and all areas of a building that is owned or leased by this state or any political subdivision of this state,
A place in which federal law prohibits the carrying of handguns.
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Stolen from Packing.org
 
If you're going to refer to statutes, wouldn't it make more sense to refer to the statutes for the state in question, rather than your home state?

NM Statutes said:
30-7-2.4. Unlawful carrying of a firearm on university premises; notice; penalty.

A. Unlawful carrying of a firearm on university premises consists of carrying a firearm on university premises except by:

(1) a peace officer;

(2) university security personnel;

(3) a student, instructor or other university-authorized personnel who are engaged in army, navy, marine corps or air force reserve officer training corps programs or a state-authorized hunter safety training program;

(4) a person conducting or participating in a university-approved program, class or other activity involving the carrying of a firearm; or

(5) a person older than nineteen years of age on university premises in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance, for lawful protection of the person's or another's person or property.

B. A university shall conspicuously post notices on university premises that state that it is unlawful to carry a firearm on university premises.

C. As used in this section:

(1) "university" means a baccalaureate degree-granting post-secondary educational institution, a community college, a branch community college, a technical-vocational institute and an area vocational school; and

(2) "university premises" means:

(a) the buildings and grounds of a university, including playing fields and parking areas of a university, in or on which university or university-related activities are conducted; or

(b) any other public buildings or grounds, including playing fields and parking areas that are not university property, in or on which university-related and sanctioned activities are performed.

D. Whoever commits unlawful carrying of a firearm on university premises is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.
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So, on the basis of the applicable statute, you may have a deadly weapon in your private vehicle on university property. Further, unless the university has conspicuously posted signs around the campus stating that carry of deadly weapons is illegal, then THEY have not complied with a prerequisite of the statute, and therefore concealed carry on that campus is NOT prohibited.

You would have to consult a NM attorney to figure out if C.2.(b) would be interpreted to apply to your "activities" in the field. Since it is unlikely that the university has run around the state posting notices in motels and hotels in other cities, it's likely a moot question. It gets interesting, since the definition of university "premises" includes proprties other than university-owned properties, but the requirement for posting doesn't exempt such other properties from the posting requirement.
 
(5) a person older than nineteen years of age on university premises in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance, for lawful protection of the person's or another's person or property.
garyk/nm: which will require travel (in Univ vehicles)
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No Jivy. Bad Juju. University vehicle not private automobile. University vehicle still university property in motel parking lot. So solly.

Why not ask for per-diem and mileage and use your own car?

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and I don't play golf either.
 
XB --

Time to consult that NM attorney again. In most statutes, "private vehicle" means other than common carrier or commercial vehicle (such as delivery trucks and 18-wheelers). A passenger car is probably still considered a "private vehicle" in the contect of the statute, even if it one owned by the university. So it may depend on why type of vehicle the university assigns to our hero.

And, of course, if the university hasn't posted conspicous signs around campus that carrying weapons is prohibited, then it's a moot point. If he's driving a vehicle off-campus, I wonder if the statute requires that the vehicle itself be posted?
 
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