Kaeto
Member
Berkowitz was just a lousy shot.
Charter Arms...school me.
- Thread starter Kymasabe
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12 people were shot at.
2 were a clean miss.
6 died in total out of the 10 that were hit.
2 were killed immeditatly
Nope - he was a decent engough shot - better than most according to the figures.
60% fatality says over half his shots were well placed.
The dismal part is that only 2 of the 10 people hit were what could be considered a OSS.
I'd say that's a pretty dismal showing for the .44Spl Bulldog.
2 were a clean miss.
6 died in total out of the 10 that were hit.
2 were killed immeditatly
Nope - he was a decent engough shot - better than most according to the figures.
60% fatality says over half his shots were well placed.
The dismal part is that only 2 of the 10 people hit were what could be considered a OSS.
I'd say that's a pretty dismal showing for the .44Spl Bulldog.
Geezer Glide
Member
In addition to my older Charter Arms revolvers, I also have a current Off Duty. I have had this one about three years. It weighs only 12 ounces and makes a wonderful pocket carry gun. I carry this one a lot and have fired a lot of practice rounds through it.
larryh1108
Member
I never realized that a OSS meant death. I thought it meant stopping the attack? I see a 60% mortality rate. Pretty effective if you ask me.
60% mortality is deceiving.
Sorry, my bad for putting it that way.
Yes. 60% did succumb to their wounds, but, it was some time after the initial attack.
My point is that while they suffered fatal gun shot wounds, they were not "stopped".
If you check the details of each shooting - which I did some ten years ago - it's a reasonable assumtion that, had it been a gunfight where the victims were armed and/or equipped to return fire, Berkowitz would have been in serious trouble.
The term "one shot stop" does not directly apply since there was no "threat" to stop.
However - had a threat existed, only two of the twelve died immediatly.
Feel free to sift through the tons of material out there. I did at one time and I'm 100% convinced the .44spl is not all that effective.
It can be, however, it's very questionable the Bulldog is up to the task of being the platform.
I didn't and still don't believe it is.
Sorry, my bad for putting it that way.
Yes. 60% did succumb to their wounds, but, it was some time after the initial attack.
My point is that while they suffered fatal gun shot wounds, they were not "stopped".
If you check the details of each shooting - which I did some ten years ago - it's a reasonable assumtion that, had it been a gunfight where the victims were armed and/or equipped to return fire, Berkowitz would have been in serious trouble.
The term "one shot stop" does not directly apply since there was no "threat" to stop.
However - had a threat existed, only two of the twelve died immediatly.
Feel free to sift through the tons of material out there. I did at one time and I'm 100% convinced the .44spl is not all that effective.
It can be, however, it's very questionable the Bulldog is up to the task of being the platform.
I didn't and still don't believe it is.
Kaeto
Member
'One Shot Stop' does not mean automatic death. It means that the shootee stops what they are doing before they were shot. If you use 'OSS' to only mean the shootee immediately dies next to no guns do it with any reliability.
MedWheeler
Member
Hal, I'll try to help you out. He's saying that, if "OSS" means "drops dead right there with one shot", then there are "next to no" handguns (meaning virtually none) that can be considered reliable "one-shot-stoppers".
the Black Spot
Member
I would think head shots would only count as OSS
MedWheeler
Member
^^There are a few different schools of thought on the definition of "one-shot stop."^^
1) Any shot that renders the person shot physically incapable of continuing whatever activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place, whether or not he survives the shooting.
2) Any shot that either meets the above definition, or causes the person shot to intentionally cease the activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place.
3) Any shot that meets the criteria in No. 1 above, due to the immediate death of the person shot.
Because No. 1 includes any incident described in No. 3, it is the most-commonly-accepted definition of "one-shot stop."
As you can see, though, it's very abstract. If I fire at an attacker and miss, and he still ceases his attack, is that a "one-shot stop", or a "no-shot stop"? If I don't even fire before he ceases his threat, is that a "no-shot stop"?
In any of those three above, "head shots" certainly may apply, but they would in no way be the "only" shots that could. They also would not automatically be considered as one-shot stops simply because people do frequently survive them, and some continue the behavior that prompted the shooting (though this is rare.)
Because head-shots are so hard to make in combat, cops and others training to use firearms in defensive fighting are still being trained to shoot for "center-of-mass."
1) Any shot that renders the person shot physically incapable of continuing whatever activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place, whether or not he survives the shooting.
2) Any shot that either meets the above definition, or causes the person shot to intentionally cease the activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place.
3) Any shot that meets the criteria in No. 1 above, due to the immediate death of the person shot.
Because No. 1 includes any incident described in No. 3, it is the most-commonly-accepted definition of "one-shot stop."
As you can see, though, it's very abstract. If I fire at an attacker and miss, and he still ceases his attack, is that a "one-shot stop", or a "no-shot stop"? If I don't even fire before he ceases his threat, is that a "no-shot stop"?
In any of those three above, "head shots" certainly may apply, but they would in no way be the "only" shots that could. They also would not automatically be considered as one-shot stops simply because people do frequently survive them, and some continue the behavior that prompted the shooting (though this is rare.)
Because head-shots are so hard to make in combat, cops and others training to use firearms in defensive fighting are still being trained to shoot for "center-of-mass."
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Kymasabe
Member
Hijack my thread much?
the Black Spot
Member
Kymasabe, my apologies, I strayed from the thread as well.
You did say "school me"....
My experince w/Charter Arms isn't one that's all warm and fuzzy.
I had a very nice Dan Wesson .22 in excellent condition complete with barrel wrench,feeler gauge and in a soft case. Since I never shot it anymore, I decided to sell or trade it off a 15 years ago years ago.
long story short, nobody wnated it excpet one dealer at a gun show.
He offered me a beat to crap Charter Arms .38 that rattled like a can of nails as a straight up trade. I declined.
I started looking at CA in better condition after that and found I didn't really like their triggers.
The only good point CA had to offer to me was that they made the only snub nose .44.
So,,,,I started digging around to see how good both a Bulldog and the .44spl were.
That naturally lead me to The Son of Sam.
So...I spent a great deal of time reading through all the forensic reports online and gathered as much information about each individual shooting as possible.
I concluded the .44spl wasn't all that hot.
It could be, but, it needs something a bit "more".
That something a bit "more" isn't something a Bulldog could really handle without turning into a rattle can like the POS .38spl I saw.
My "normal" .44 spl handload is a 240 gr SWC of a dose of 2400 powder for about 900 to 1000 fps out of a S&W M29.
That's a bit on the stout side for a CA .44spl.
Back then there was only three real choices in .44spl
- hanload
- Silver Tip
- 246 gr RNL
Silver Tips were ok as long as they had enough barrel ahead of them - something a Bulldog didn't. Handloads were out simply because the Bulldog wasn't a good platform.
The 246gr RNL - probably the load Berkowitz used, didn't really do the job.
Moral?
Use the best load you can shoot well and make sure what you launch it with is reliable and accurate enough to do the job.
Catshooter
Member
To the poster that said that the .38 comes out to 9.36 mm and the 9mm is a .35, you're close. But not really. 
Nine mm is typically .355-.356. Thirty eight is typically .357-.358. As it's not really a .38 you can't convert it like it is.
A 9mm and a .38 can use the same barrel. Ruger has sold a Blackhawk revolver with a cylinder for each for many years. The .38 cylinder is chambered for the .357, but of course a .38 works well in it.
Bear in mind that these numbers are what's called 'nominal'. Meaning somewhat close. The 357 mag is supposed to be .357-.358, but I've had them from a tight .355 to almost .360.
Just so you know.
Cat
Nine mm is typically .355-.356. Thirty eight is typically .357-.358. As it's not really a .38 you can't convert it like it is.
A 9mm and a .38 can use the same barrel. Ruger has sold a Blackhawk revolver with a cylinder for each for many years. The .38 cylinder is chambered for the .357, but of course a .38 works well in it.
Bear in mind that these numbers are what's called 'nominal'. Meaning somewhat close. The 357 mag is supposed to be .357-.358, but I've had them from a tight .355 to almost .360.
Just so you know.
Cat
Kymasabe
Member
Thank you all for your input.
lobo9er
Member
this a thread about charter arms not berkowitz or his victims.
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