"Chase the Hole" Shooting Technique?

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So if you are not a "gamer" you must suck, point taken thanks. Too bad too, there are some non-gamers that can shoot. I'll be sure to tell them that without a gamer classification they suck, and refer them to some real experts for how to develop some skill.

Chest thumping about wars and third world countries and danger eh? Been there and done that myself, even got some medals doing it, but never thought to point out that it qualified me for something other than a little pride........

The man shoots, and shoots very well as witnessed by a member. He may suck as an actor, but that detracts from his shooting ability how?

The pompous nature of some posts is really revealing.
 
The pompous nature of some posts is really revealing.

As are yours.

Chest thumping about wars and third world countries and danger eh?

Um, no. But being a bad actor isn't a famously dangerous career, or one worthy of reflexive, unearned respect.

Been there and done that myself, even got some medals doing it, but never thought to point out that it qualified me for something other than a little pride...

Me either. That's why I'm wondering why some B-grade actor is worthy of such starry-eyed adoration. ;)
 
My point is you can find a gamer and know exactly how good he really shoots in a couple minutes of research. You can look at their match results for the last year and their classification and that will let you know where they stand.

Somebody who comes along and is supposedly good with no evidence to back that up, and has a technique that nobody else good on earth uses, better be prepared to back their claims up with some actual shooting.

No offense is meant towards the poster who actually witnessed him shoot. However I don't know his frame of reference. I've shot with people who would consider me really good, and the fact is that I'm not that good, I'm only good relative to what their frame of reference is. There are guys out there who whoop me easily. (and do so on a weekly basis).

All I can say is that chasing the hole sounds like BS, and it goes against everything that I have ever heard from top shooters, Gamers or people who have Been There and Done That.
 
Man this thread has been an absolute hoot. I took the time to read the information provided by Hal. Looks to me like "chasing the hole" is nothing more than shooting a round into center of mass, then using that hole as a point of aim to perform a fairly traditional dot drill or Bill drill. Chasing the hole apperas to be a developmental drill for tracking the sights and fire control. I don't think chasing the hole is meant to be preformed on bad guys in a dark alley.

As for the notion that you need to be a gamer to understand the basics of shooting, that's nonsense. There are a lot of gamers who have never mastered the fundamentals and that's why we have a classification system. OTOH, IPSC gamers have the sole purpose of developing techniques that will allow them to get adequate hits on the targets as quickly as possible. Really good shooters who understand the game and what it takes to shoot fast and accurately are the ultimate experts. Guys like Brian Enos, Rob Leatham, Jerry Barnhart, Todd Jarret, Matt Burkett, and so on come to mind. That's why elite military forces, law enforcement agencies and fellow gamers seek those guys out for instruction.

I really want to get to Arizona to take a class from Burkett and maybe even spend a couple of hours with Brian Enos. Would anyone argue that my time would be better spent taking shooting lessons from Steven Segal? I didn't think so.

TY43321
 
I went back and edited my earlier comments. I was coming across as being a pompus jerk and not taking the High Road. I apologize because no offense was intended, but I was unneccesarily rude about it.
 
I don't see HSMITH's comments as anything approaching adoration for anybody. He is simply maintaining an opinion that a particular person has well-defined shooting abilities and that that person uses a certain shooting technique that does not appear to be in favor with most experts in the field. Beyond the rhetoric, it is entirely possible that this technique, when properly employed, may in fact yield favorable results. I really think that pooh--poohing Mr. Seagal's shooting skills without seeing them in action is highly presumptive.
 
Thank you rock jock, you read well and without presumption.

Ankeny actually read the info, did anyone else before posting? Anyone think a bill drill is bogus?

A whole lot of BS over terminology I think, pretty sad. It is about a TRAINING technique for learning to shoot fast accurate follow-up shots, not anything else. Lots of people are going to be embarrassed when they actually read it.......

I also apologize for being overly sarcastic and judgemental toward some of the posters.
 
You guys are trying to prove a negative. Just because he's not a nationally ranked IPSC/IDPA competitor with a known track record doesn't mean he can't shoot. Just because most (apparently) of the THR members think he's an ???????, that has no bearing on whether he can really shoot...even if he's a bad actor too!! Sorry guys but my sources indicate he is a good shooter who takes it seriously and trains hard, regardless of the true meaning of “chasing the holeâ€:
“B. Live-Fire practice
1. Begin at no more than seven yards distance, snap-shoot first round onto target, then "chase" the first bullet hole with the rest of the rounds in the pistol.
2. Repeat as needed (100-200 rounds minimum) until pistol is being emptied quickly without causing the first bullet hole to enlarge by any appreciable amount.â€

Seems to me that chasing the hole in the context of the above quote from the tusseycustom link, is that he’s simply emptying the magazine at the target as quickly as possible while maintaining a tight group. Seems like a good way to practice sight alignment and trigger control.

I’m no Segal fan, but the animus on this thread toward him is truly amazing. Maybe he isn’t a war fighter and he only plays one in the movies, but that’s all John Wayne did. Segal makes movies and gets paid a bunch to make them. That doesn’t negate his abilities as a martial artist (with or without firearms); he is getting a gut though. From what I hear the guy loves 1911’s, shoot them real well and takes the shooting sports seriously. Come on folks he may be an ???????, but he’s our kind of ??????? :)
 
Come on folks he may be an ???????, but he’s our kind of ???????
Good point. How many Hollyweird types actually know anything about guns other than what they have been told by a technical consultant on the set? I wonder what his stance on gun control is?
 
What would you equate his skill level with? Say in IPSC, master, grandmaster? I am curious.
I really don't know how to compare. How would you classify a person who can:

Put 50 rounds rapid fire, standing, in less than 3" at 50 yards.

Hit a tennis ball on the ground at about 10 yards and then hit it again and again as it bounced farther downrange until there was nothing left that would bounce. Hitting it AS it bounced!

Randomly address 6 B27 targets at differing ranges, all shots in X, rapid fire 100 rounds without ever hitting slide lock?



I wasn't a big fan of Seagal. I had seen some of his movies and few were OK. A little corny I thought. I also though him to be a bit on the pompous side.

After meeting him I realize that it is just a matter of extreme confidence and for a lack of a better term, Inner Peace.
There is a certain kind of spooky calm that seems to surround him. He's not really arrogant but I can see where most peole would feel he was. I guess it's all the martial arts and Buddism. He seems to be very quiet yet secure.

I was working for a limousine service in a large city and my job was to make sure that important people had anything and everything they needed or wanted while they were using our services. In this case one of the things was to procure an outdoor shooting range exclusively for the client for the day. I only spent the better part of one day with him and we were not "buddies", but he did treat me with respect and was never overbearing. (He also tips really well!)

I still only like a few of his movies. But as a person he's aces in my book.


Ah yes he asked me what I carried and after finding I was carrying a Colt 45 he asked if would like to shoot. For the only time in my life I politely refused.
 
:D

Really enjoyed this thread. I about busted my gut laughing over some of the comments. More interesting to me was who took the bait and who didn't. :neener:

Okay, let's break it down for the more befuddled. :eek:

"Chasing the hole," "dotting the i," "kicking the can," "slicing the pie," "splittin' the cherries" - whatever - are just cutesy names of shooting "techniques" people have developed that may or may not have any real-world defensive benefit.

Take a look at that group on the target in Sean's first post. When you can shoot COM that tightly, and under stress, it doesn't really matter much what the technique is called that got you there. (This is a lot like people debating whether the techniques of Tae Kwon Do are more effective than the techniques of Wing Chung. If you've trained hard and well, then the techniques of either fighting style are sufficient to save your a**).

About Seagal there are many opinions and a few facts. Good or bad actor? The quality of his "action" movies? Those are matters of opinion, and everyone has one.

A few facts are matters of record. He's a Life member of the NRA, an active shooter, and has appeared at NRA-related events, like other progun Hollywood stars ( e.g., Heston, Selleck, Willis). His public statements that I've read were all pro-RKBA, which automatically puts him way ahead of 99% of the left-liberals in the movie biz.

Those who've met or dealt with the guy have differing opinions of his personality. Some say he's a real nice guy, while others claim he's an arrogant a-hole. From some of the publicity, it appears Seagal's worst enemy is himself. Probably this issue can be argued either way, but since I don't deal with him I don't care.

For the benefit of the couch-potato commandos, those who've read about martial arts but never got past a white belt in family-room wrestling, Seagal is - or was - the real deal as far as Aikido goes. I can't speak to the other stuff he says he's trained in. But in his early movies the speed, fluidity and advanced way he blended various Aiki techniques was quite apparent to those who trained in Aikido for any appreciable time (especially a "hard" style).

The problem is, over the years Seagal's put on a lot of weight and has slowed down in the way he enters and executes. And some of his more current stuff (the close-in fight scenes) looks sloppy and staged. This could be due to age (51), injury or not training regularly, or all of these, but it shows in the recent movies, I think.

And given the demographics of action-movies, it was probably a perceptive marketing strategy to start partnering him with Gangsta Rappers. ;)

:cool:
 
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I really don't know how to compare. How would you classify a person who can:

Put 50 rounds rapid fire, standing, in less than 3" at 50 yards.

I don't know what you consider rapid fire. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a person on the planet who can shoot a sub 3 inch group consisting of 50 rounds "rapid fire" at 50 yards with an iron sighted 1911 on demand.

The record for outdoor centerfire pistol slow fire is/was held (last I knew) by H.L Anderson shooting Open with a score of 200-10X on 7/20/75. The 10 ring on that target is 3.07 inches in diameter. Segal can beat the slow fire world record 2 and one half times back to back shooting rapid fire. I guess I would call that pretty decent.
 
In this case one of the things was to procure an outdoor shooting range exclusively for the client for the day.
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he asked if would like to shoot. For the only time in my life I politely refused.
So he's not into showing off or getting into a position where some idiot can rant "I outshot the great Steven Seagal" over beers with his buddies. Yeah, I can see that.


Ahh so much the pity. - You should have taken him up on the offer. I'd have jumped all over that in a heartbeat. - I'm curious though,,,,why decline?
 
Like one of the previous posters mentioned, like his acting or not he is a real martial artist and I respect his talent.

I believe he even studied under Master Ueshiba for a while if I recall correctly. If you are unaware who Master Ueshiba is, he is the man who created Aikido.

Trimation
 
hmmm

I do this all the time....in practice.

I am a cheap college students, and I can't afford to throw up a new target after every magazine. So after my first group, I shoot a hole on a blank piece of paper and I 'chase' it with the rest of that magazine and repeat as necessary.

I would never dream of trying to do this in a real combat situation. In real life, I am going to shoot as fast I can while still keeping my shots on the torso. I can shoot nice tight groups when I want to, but they take more time.
 
Just bought Segal's Half Past Dead dvd and consider it some of the worst acting/scripting I've ever seen. His first two movies were entertaining and different, but I noted quickly that his "persona" never seems to change.

That's my opinion and you can have yours. I like the variation.

As for shooting ability, show me the stats. I'll be glad to show you mine ( www.rmgcollects.com /click on IDPA and check for my name) but you'll never hear me claim to be a great shooter. I was really shocked when a guy from work said I was the best shooter he'd every met! Talk about not knowing much!!

I'm not going to bash anyone about their shooting abilities, but I'd like to see some kind of numbers so I personally know where you're at. If you're a novice-class shooter in IDPA, there ain't no shame. Though unclassified at this time, I'm probably a novice or marksman in IDPA (don't know where my numbers would put me). The difference between me and the majority is that I'm actively trying to improve my skills so that I can one day claim some higher title....just like Seagal worked towards the black belt.

Don't misunderstand me, however. I realize that IDPA/IPSC ability has little or no relation to practicing for real-world combat. There's little doubt that Matt Burkett or Brian Enos would probably fare well in a shootout with stock gear, but a lot of what they do in competition would get them killed on the streets. Does that make sense?

With all the anti's in Hollywood, why don't we all give Steven a break. He seems like a pretty genuine fella to me and I'd be more than glad to shoot with him if he's ever in the area and wants to hang with a commoner.

Merry Christmas.
 
"chasing the hole"...
how many of you guys have shot a tussy? i feel they are the best smithed 1911 to be had anywhere. they are awesome. the one i shot (regretfully i cannot afford to own one) was as close to a perfect piece of machinery that i have had the pleasure to hold. it had excellent sights, soft shooting, and a trigger that is second to none. with my tired, corrected vision eyes, i shot quarter sized groups with each and EVERY magazine, at seven yards. the gun seemed to raise the bar for me. i cannot consistantly do that with any other gun i have ever shot. i can shoot one hole groups with my wife's s&w 586 about 80% of the time. i definately cannot do it with any auto that i own. none of my autos are in a tussy auto's league.
with such a high quality gun, quality ammo, and lots of practice with a focused mindset one hole groups are very expectable. i agree that it is not a good combat practice, but it is a good drill to learn to put the projectile jusr where you want it.
 
VaughnT:

As for shooting ability, show me the stats.

OK, here's mine. The Stats

So tell me what do the "stats" have to do with anything? Don't fall into the trap of basing credibility on accomplishment. If that were the case, as a rank beginner you would have no credibility yourself.

I realize that IDPA/IPSC ability has little or no relation to practicing for real-world combat.

I'll agree that Practical Shooting doesn't have a lot to do with mindset, survival tactics, etc. However, the gunhandling skills learned in practical shooting are priceless on the street. Why do you think some of the most sought after handgun trainers in the world for elite military units, law enforcement agencies, etc. have their roots in practical shooting? Guys like Ron Avery and Jerry Barnhart make a living by training gunslingers.

bdhawk:

I agree that equipment can make a difference. However, at seven yards, groups the size of a quarter are to be expected out of any decent handgun. My CZ 75B shoots that good or better. Maybe it's the indian and not the arrow.
 
Looks to me like "chasing the hole" is nothing more than shooting a round into center of mass, then using that hole as a point of aim to perform a fairly traditional dot drill or Bill drill. Chasing the hole apperas to be a developmental drill for tracking the sights and fire control.

That's exactly what it is, just with a different name. I don't understand what the vitriol is all about. There was an article in Handguns magazine roughly eight years ago, written by Paul Hantke, about Terry Tussey and some of his custom handguns owned by Seagal. It also details some of Seagal's shooting exercises, and this is probably what the original poster was referring to.
 
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