Choosing a barrel (for 1911's)

[CrazyIrishman]

Old Fuff, 'Tuner.....anybody,


Sometime before fall gets here I plan on having a new barrel installed. While the present barrel still has rifling left in it, it ain't much!

I do have a few questions about choosin' a barrel.

1) Which type of rifling is best? : Broached or Button
2) Does type of rifling help determine barrel life and accuracy?
3) If you are havin' a 'smith install your barrel is the non drop-in barrel a good idea? (purchase price is same for either the "drop-in" barrel or the one that needs "fitting").

THX

 

[Jim Watson]

What do you use the gun FOR?

1. Doesn't matter, quality is more important than tooling.
2. No. Quality of the barrel, its fitup, and the ammo used govern.
3. If the gunsmith is experienced on the particular gun (1911, I assume) I would go with the fully fitted barrel.

 

[Sean Smith]

1) Which type of rifling is best? : Broached or Button
2) Does type of rifling help determine barrel life and accuracy?
3) If you are havin' a 'smith install your barrel is the non drop-in barrel a good idea? (purchase price is same for either the "drop-in" barrel or the one that needs "fitting").

1. What Jim said.
2. What Jim said.
3. 'Smith = oversized Match Target barrel. The cost is basically the same and you will get a better result that way.

The following...

Bar-Sto
Ed Brown
Kart
Nowlin
Schuemann
Wilson

... All make excellent barrels.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Contradicting just to be polite

(1) Given a cracker barrel I'd argue rifling a little bit as between a dedicated lead bullet midrange wadcutter gun and a 230 grain ball gun. Since that's not the case here I'll go along with with the notion that the shipping paper may tell you how the barrel was rifled - IIRC Ed Brown is broached some others are done different ways especially Schuemann - the target paper never will.

(2) No, alloy and the hard surfacing effect of flame hardening embrittlement associated with temperature and thus with rate of fire combined with cleaning (see e.g. Gale on cleaning stainless) and other factors will leave rifling type lost in the noise. FREX IMHO a max-loaded 90 grain bullet will wash a 9X23 pretty quickly, the same barrel will live longer with a max loaded 147 grain and do just fine with a mild 125 grain. Much the same applies to what I take it is likely a .45 ACP?

(3) A drop-in barrel may well be one that needs fitting. I would take it as gospel that a gunsmith fit barrel has real advantages in all cases (when properly fitted).

 

[AJB2]

No such thing as a drop-in.All will require some fitting.Ramped barrel will require frame to be cut.If your going to go to all that expense I'd stick w/ Barsto or Kart.Unless you know what constitutes a good fit let a pro do it.Fellow I know tried to DIY on a Kart E-Z fit & had to have lugs welded back up as he'd removed too much material.Don't know what your intended use is.Barsto is broach cut & a little "toothy" better for jacketed bullets.Kart has a slicker interior finish & is better for lead.Lots of the IPDA/IPSC guys like Wilson or Nowlin.Point to consider more Barsto/Karts in the winners circle @ Camp Perry than all the rest combined.Barrel fit is IMHO the most important part of 1911 accuracy.Hope this helps.

 

[Dean Taylor]

I think you have gotten some good answers however I would approach it a little differently. First identify the caliber and base pistol and the type of shooting please. Then decide if you wish to do it yourself or have it done by a professional. There are lots of aspects of accuracy in addition to barrel brand. These have been discussed here before. If you are going to have pistolsmith such as Tuner do the job I would suggest discussing parts selection with the pistolsmith. There may be reasons with your base equipment and planed use to select certain parts. My patients do not pick their Pacemaker brand or Stent manufacturer. Listen to your pistolsmith.

Not every smith is comfortable with all barrels and their fitting - bull, non bull, fitted top down or bottom up, recoil system, bushing type etc. There is a recent thread about the Kart EZ fit system which I like the best but is misnamed. It is also well represented at Camp Perry as noted above. I think I have shot pistols with all the barrels mentioned. The barrel which has suprised me is the Ed Brown officers barrel in my SSO1 (Titanium Commander lower and Officers upper) with a Kings recoil system. It shoots like a bullseye pistol even with the short barrel. It is far from a drop in however!

I am not a professional pistolsmith but rather an amatuer metal worker who works only on his own pistols. Judge this comment accordingly.

Good luck and good shooting.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Hi guys!

Thanks for all the great info! I see from some of your answers that I did indeed forget to include enough iinfo with my original post. In my defence I must say that at the time I posted (early AM) I was experiencing "brain fade" ! LOL! After some coffee I was fine.

Here's the scoop on the pistol.

It is a 1957 Sistema 45 acp in as issued condition and is 100% stock.
Primary useage: Personal defense

Additional useage: I may get back into some sort of competition . I used to shoot a National Match type course years ago at a local range

Ammo type: 230 grain ball or HP's . Doubt if I'll use lead at all or +P loads.

I plan on having a gunsmith install the barrel since I DO NOT have the experience needed for the job. I've haven't spoken to any 'smiths about installing a barrel yet. I am considering a Wilson or Ed Brown barrel at the moment,maybe others pending 'smith recommendations.

Whichever barrel is used it will be "non-ramped".

The pistol is in pretty good condition overall and still fairly tight IMO. Vertical clearance on the slide is between .004 to .005 .Horizontal measurement is .005 . The disconnector rail to frame is .001 ,and the slide glides on the rails like a "greased pig" without any lube.

I hope I covered all the bases this time. LMK if I missed anything.

 

[Dean Taylor]

Your base platform in my opinion is not a premium platform. Spending significant $ for a premium barrel such as the brands mentioned will not in my opinion make it one either. I would think carefully before spending many $ on this project. You can have lots of fun with your pistol which are for sale some places for $170-180 but I suggest a cheap barrel. Perhaps your pistolsmith has something that can be used in his spare parts drawer.

Perhaps other have a different view.

Good luck and good shooting.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[GaryK]

I once had a takeoff Springfield barrel installed in a 1911 with excllent results. In my opinion, any decent quality barrel, that is properly fitted, will shoot better than most are capable of. I shoot reasonably well but am the first to admit that I am just not good enough to be able to take advantage of the extra accuracy in a properly fitted match barrel.

 

[DT Guy]

I understand the desire to make the old warhorse shoot again, aside from intrinsic value. Storm Lake Machine and KKM both have good reputations as 'less expensive' aftermarket barrels, and will shoot very well when properly fitted.


Larry

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Hi Dean,

Where have you seen Sistema Colt pistols going for $170.00-$180.00? The only pistol I've seen close to that is the Ballester-Rigaud 45acp. Only the magazine and barrel interchange in that pistol.

SOG had both pistols many moons ago and even then they wanted (IIRC) $299.00 to $350.00 depending on finish (parked or blue). The Ballesters were much cheaper that that.

I know my pistol isn't in the same league as a Les Baer,Wilson or (insert brand name). I also know about throwing good money after bad too. Its just that one day in the near future it will need a barrel. I can buy either Wilson barrel for $119.00 + shipping. Obviously this doesn't include the cost of a gunsmith to install it.

While this pistol isn't a "premium platform" at least it does function 100% (so far)which I couldn't say for a NIB P-12 Para-Ordnance 45acp a few years ago. The Para malfunctioned most of the time on the first shot but in no case would you ever make it past the second. It went back to the dealer QUICKLY! BTW,I also bought a NIB Colt Commander after the Para and that one made noises like a baby rattle .

I've read in other places where guys deride the Sistema's as junk. Thats not to say that none are. Even the best firearm money can buy will turn into a paperweight if abused and not maintained. Aside from maybe needing a refinish , I'm happy with it.

Isn't that what its all about anyway......being happy with what you have? There's enough guns made in different calibers,price,sizes,and design to make even the most picky or discriminating person satisfied.

PS: just my .02 worth.

 

[Dale Taylor]

Dean examined mine 1 month ago while in Tampa. Cost $182.50 I'm having fun with it. [email protected]

 

[Canuck-IL]

My Norinco plinker and play gun for trying out IDPA/IPSC broke a lug and I used a Springfield stainless from Midway ($65 w link and pin) as a replacement...literally dropped right in. I had a match bushing fit and it's entirely satisfactory for those uses.
/Bryan

 

[Dean Taylor]

I agree not in MD.

I agree they run fine and are fun.

I do not like the sights for my old eyes. I have sufficient disposable income, skill and experience to replace the sights, new barrel, new internals and a S&A beavertail but this woud not upgrade the value of the 1911. I would rather spend my money on a new build.

I still advise a "cheap" barrel.

Have fun and good shooting.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

 

[ulflyer]

CrazyIrishman: I bought a used 1991A1 by mail a few months ago and found that the barrel throat had been reamed out something fierce! Took it to Tuner and he fitted with only minor tweaking a Springfield barrel and now its a real accurate shooter. I would suggest that would work well for you also.

 

[1911Tuner]

Barrel

Hey Ted,

Good to hear that barrel is workin' out like it should. We got lucky on that one when the specs and dimensions between the slide and barrel worked out for a good fit with 2 lugs in play and good headspace. Sometimes a "drop-in" really does...

 

[ulflyer]

Tuner, That 1991A1 is a favorite, along with the Commemorative and the Nork which runs them all a close second if not first...both of which I'd like you to go over sometime when things lighten up on your end. Still haven't ordered the sights for the Nork but its on my round tuit list.

Have made a bunch of cherry wood smooth grips which came out pretty decent and perks up the 1911's some. Since I don't carry any of them, I prefer smooth grips.

If my Ford Ranger is useful for hauling stuff let me know when you start moving. Can't lift much but can "supervise" and drive.

 

[Old Fuff]

Argentine Sistema Pistols

I am greatly amused by those that look down their noses at the Argentine "Pistola Sistema Colt Modelo Angentino 1927, Calibre 11.25mm;" and gratified by their ignorance because it helps keep prices relatively low.

Argentina adopted the Colt 1911 pistol in 1914, and thereafter purchased from Colt, some 21,616 commercial grade guns, first as the model 1911/14 and later the 1911A1 as their model 1927.

They also purchased manufacturing rights from Colt. Consequently the pistols they would later produce between 1945 to 1966 were not some kind of cheap knock-off, but rather pistols made in a government arsenal, under license from Colt to Colt's 1930's standards, but from the better materials that were available during the 1950's and 60's. If Colt had built pistols such as these during the same time period people would be fighting to get them and prices would be going through the roof. But since they were made in Argentina both Colt collectors and shooters largely ignore them. As for myself, I am delighted at this.

But on the negative side, many of those that were imported into the United States as military surplus were well used, had eroded and/or corroded bores, and frequently the internal lockwork - particularly sears and hammers - had been messed with. However these are things that are relatively easy to fix, and as a basis for a builder the Sistema's are as good as, or a much better platform to start with then a lot of the pistols being produced in this country today out of lowest-cost cast or MIM parts. Sistema's were made out of high-carbon steel forgings or bar stock. Even the triggers were made out of a one-piece steel forging, not stampings with pot-metal or plastic fingerpieces. :banghead:

Because they were made to Colt blueprints and specifications all original Colt parts and aftermarket parts that are truly identical in critical dimensions to Colt parts will fit in a Sistema, although some fitting may be required - as is the same with Colt's.

I suppose I will regret posting this because as a result the word may get out, and prices will go up. But sometimes one must make a personal sacrifice for the greater good. But then - hopefully only a few will believe the demented ravings of an old man.

I sure hope so ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Argentine Colts

Fuff! ssshhhhhhh...

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh I know ... but don't worry, nobody believes a word I say. Anybody that still shoots a stock Colt 1911 and uses 7-round magazines isn't worthy of consideration ...