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Civil Disobedience Considered

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by NIGHTWATCH, Jul 19, 2003.

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  1. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    I often consider not renewing my permit on the grounds that it is a violation of my civil rights. The permit, registration and the fact that it expires are all examples of the abuse that comes with the compromising of our liberties with the government. Be it city, state or federal. The problem is, will any pro-2A organization come to my aid? Or will I rot in jail? What do you think? :scrutiny:
     
  2. winstonsmith

    winstonsmith Member

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    I think you will rot in jail, because no 2a organization which has any weight at all won't want to get the bad press of supporting someone who breaks laws.
     
  3. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    But thats just it, it/they are unjust laws. I believe it was Martin Luther King jr. who said, "Those who break an unjust law, are actually showing the greatest respect for the rule of law". Ghandi understood how powerful the simple act of non-co-operation was. The question is, how much attention would/could this generate? Thats the key. I would be willing to do the time, if I knew that I would have the support.

    It was against the law to sit in the front of the bus, until someone did.
     
  4. Ian

    Ian Member

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    I don't know what any 2nd-A groups would do for you, but I think that ignoring the permit is definitely a good thing to do, for those who are willing to take the risk. I'm working in a gun shop this summer, and I've met a surprisingly large number of people who have carried illegally for decades, because of Colorado's only recently changed may-issue permit system. More power to 'em, I think.
     
  5. biere

    biere Member

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    Someone posted about the state of mass. increasing their permit cost 300% or so I think.

    That right there taught me that paying for the right to practice a right is not something my elected officials need to be in charge of ever.

    Many gun owners I know and talk to feel the only way to get vermont or alaska carry is with the court doing it. Since they feel that way I am not about to urge anyone to sit in front of this bus because it is moving and the pedal is floored.

    I live in ohio and agree with your thoughts. However ohio has no ccw right now though we are working towards it.

    I honestly don't know if I will get the ccw if it passes.

    I do know the most likely reason I would get it is because in most states with ccw laws it becomes a felony to carry without a permit.

    I think right now in many states without ccw it is a misdemeanor to carry concealed since there is no legal alternative in many cases.
     
  6. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    I dont have a CCW. Im speaking on my rifle/shotgun permit that is due to expire next year. ;)

    I have made an effort to contact GOA on this. Im curious to here what they will say.
     
  7. KC

    KC Member

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    Certainly, the ACLU would never consider helping you. ('Existing to protect the Bill of Rights' my heavily enfolliated melanin-deficient posterior...)
     
  8. Abenaki

    Abenaki Member

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    We don't need to depend upon just the big gun organizations to help us fight against bad laws.

    We all can do it. It is called voting not guilty when you are in the jury.

    If you feel it is a bad and illegal law........just vote not guilty. How long would it take for the goverment to stop busting people for exerzising their legal rights if every time they did, the person got off cause the jury exerzised the right to vote not guilty?

    Abenaki
     
  9. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    Nightwatch,

    you said,

    "But thats just it, it/they are unjust laws. "

    My question is;

    Who decides which laws are unjust?

    DM
     
  10. KC

    KC Member

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    "Who decides which laws are unjust? "

    Do the prison guard unions like it?
    Does Jesse Jackson approve?
    Are French potato farmers protesting it?
     
  11. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I think you'd rot in jail. Nobody, not even the G.O.A., seems to have noticed the Second Amendment is all the so-called "license" law-abiding American citizens need to keep and bear arms.

    That saidâ„¢, getting the license and keeping it up to date amount to the lesser of two evils in my opinion.
     
  12. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Double Maduro,

    The theory of representative government holds that the legislature only passes just laws, and the people only elect legislators who will do so. We can see how well that system works in practice. :rolleyes: The fact is that the legislature passes laws desired by the majority of the people (or possibly by the majority of the wealthy campaign donors), without any regard for the idea of justice.

    The Supreme Court is also theoretically responsible for determining which laws are just, but getting a day in the Supreme Court takes decades of time and thousands upon thousands of dollars, making it beyond the reach of most people. Even when a case does get that far, the Court is barely more interested in justice than the legislature (personal bias being a more influential motive among the 'Justices').

    Since each element of theoretical protection by the system has clearly failed, it falls to each individual to determine the validity of the law. There is no other recourse than to break the laws you judge unjust or voluntarily suffer them. The Declaration of Independence notes that government powers are granted by consent of the governed - so it must ultimately be the right of the governed to reject their government, in whole or in part and as individuals or as groups.
     
  13. Drjones

    Drjones member

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  14. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Are said laws in place to prevent actions that violate the NAP? If not, then I don't see much point for such laws to exist.
     
  15. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Nightwatch, whilst I wholeheartedly support your sentiments, the fact remains - and it's a cold, hard, rather indigestible fact, I know - that the courts of this country have ruled time and time again that the regulation of a right does not amount to an infringement of that right. This certainly applies to the Sullivan laws and other firearms regulations in New York. They've been tested in court, and found to be constitutional. You and I know very well that they are clearly against the spirit of the Constitution, but the courts have decided that they're not against the letter of the Constitution. Hence, if you don't renew your permits, guess who'll end up the loser? :fire:
     
  16. PileDriver

    PileDriver Member

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    the lesser of two evils is still evil. i hear this argument constantly with regards to voting for either of the two frontrunners of our political parties.


    the only guarantee with this type of thinking is more evil. we either have an inalienable, god given right, or we don't.

    getting permission to defend our lives and our loved ones from a politician and granting him that power is what's evil
     
  17. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    Justin nailed it.

    Dontcha' guys recognize a mob racket when it punches you in the face?

    "We're here to help
    You need protection
    You need insurance
    (Its the law,)"

    Sign on the dotted line and pay, and we may let you continue to walk around. Dont sign up and pay and we'll either kill you or lock you up so deep you'll wish you were dead.

    Organized crime under color of law.:uhoh:
     
  18. BowStreetRunner

    BowStreetRunner Member

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    or instead of going to jail vote with your feet and move to Vermont!
    BSR
     
  19. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Question for NIGHTWATCH:

    If/When you are caught carrying w/o a license, what will you do then?

    • Will you resist arrest?
    • Will you fight it in the court?
    • Can you afford the legal fees to fight it in court?
    • Will you spend your life in jail?

    I've made my decisions & have my own opinions about this. And they will stay to myself for the time being...
     
  20. Erik

    Erik Member

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    The gun lobbies will by in large ignore your legal plight.

    For that matter, most folks will.

    Including many gun owners.

    Which is why you would face conviction and whatever punishment is dealt out.
     
  21. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    The problem with this, Justin, is that your definition of the NAP is a subjective standard. Essentially, you are saying, if I don't agree with a law, it is not justified. Presumably, this gives you cause for disobeying said law. You are free to do as you wish, but understand that society will not show much sympathy for those who only obey the laws they like. Prisons are full of them.

    As far as your dilemma, Nightwatch, I would take with a grain of salt any advice you read here. It is easy for some of us to urge you on to civil disobedience when we won't be serving the time should you be caught. Were I in your shoes, I would probably leave NYC, but that's just me. I have become to accustomed to freedom in Texas. We have the CHL system, but I do not consider this to be to great a burden that I am willing to protest it.
     
  22. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    Seeker_two

    I would not resist arrest. I would seek representation and fight in court. But only if I had the financial backing of a large RKBA organization. If I knew that I was going to be aided in this in a big way (talk radio & various media), I would do the time. Gladly. Only under this condition though, otherwise, It would be unwise and a lost cause.


    Double Maduro? Who determines what is unjust? We the people, are the rightful masters of the courts and every other government entity. In measure to the constitution, I believe the 2A is absolute. It is the greatest tangable symbol of my freedom. When I have to fear losing my guns because some politician wants me to pay as I go (or create a mandatory $250,000 liability insurance requirement on all rifle/shotgun owners as the city council is attempting now), it is an attempt to hinder my freedom in the presumtion that I will be guilty of some future crime.

    If gunowners dont act individually against this tyranny, who will? And at what point are you nolonger willing to compromise? At what point do you make a stand and how?

    Its interesting to me how some liberal politicians would praise the september 11th suicide bombers and compare them to our founding fathers in their zeal and belief, but if I was arrested for some bogus gun control law that left me with a criminal record, and decided to blow away a few politicians, they would call me "malcontented". Disturbed or some other "profile" terminology.

    When does it end? Gun control that is. If the highest court in the land has abandoned the defense of our civil liberties, than what course is left to us?

    I cant speak for anyone but myself here. But I didnt suffer all my life, my mother didnt suffer raising 4 boys on her own, to be decent, law-abiding people, only to be jailed because of some politician who could care less for the constitution. Make no mistake about it. If I am ever a victim of any government measure that lands me in jail and blemishes my life, you will hear about me on the news. I will be the guy who shot and decapitated some sorry politician who has violated the constitution for the last time.

    In the meantime, I will reluctantly renew my permit and pray to God that I get out of this forsaken city.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2003
  23. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    If you want to be Rosa Parks then by all means do so. I will support you in it. Hell, id donate money to the defense. It often takes a display of courage to get things to change. But, if i were you i would do it right. Get yourself a laywer NOW and see what he says. And bear in mind if you fit the typical white-guy conservative demographic you will get NO public support and you will most likely face the standard penalty for the infraction. The only way to win this sort of thing is to end up on the front page somewhere. But, if you manage to pull it off ill sure as heck buy you a round next time your in Seattle.
     
  24. NIGHTWATCH

    NIGHTWATCH Member

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    Thanks CY. ;) Thankfully Im not exactly a "White Guy". Im a white hispanic. And yes, that might maybe have some pull here. Law-abiding Puerto Rican man refuses to renew permit because it is a racist attempt to disarm minorities in the inner city, yadda yadda yadda. :D

    As of now, I plan to pay and renew, but I will speak to a lawyer. Thanks. ;)
     
  25. Vladimir Berkov

    Vladimir Berkov Member

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    This has already been tried. Remember Bernie Goetz?
     
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