Civil War over illegal aliens?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yup, their Norte American Dream becomes *our* American nightmare. Calling All Ostritches! Ya know which end is up in the air?

Just because you don't see a problem, don't mean that it doesn't exist.
The CIS did a study a few years back that indicated the average immigrant takes $56,000 more out of the system over a lifetime than they put in. Bush is looking at giving amnesty to 15-20 million illegals and this isn't counting their families. Anyone care to add that up?

Oh, I forgot - this study was done before Bush proposed that they would be eligible for SS.

So, how much is $56,000 times 20 million?
Okay, now add in their families.
Oh, and I almost forgot the SS they'll all be eligible for.

Feelin' all warm and fuzzy now?

Biker
 
'Card

It may take awhile, but Americans will eventually wake up to the fact that there's nothing to feel threatened about, and that most of the anti-immigrant hype is based on racism, plain and simple.
Click to expand...

Racism huh? Well lets take a look. Europe is being invaded in the same way North America is, mostly by Africans and Arabs, but also by South Asians. North America and Europe are predominantly peopled by, and the economic and political systems are run by, white caucasian people.

I'f I'm not mistaken isn't racism the beliefe in a superior race or culture? If so, wouldn't that make all those Third Worlders racists? After all they are flooding into those parts of the world where they see a superior culture to their own.

By the way, 'Card, can you show me where Caucasian europeans and North Americans are flooding by the MILLIONS into ANY country in Africa? Maybe into greater Arabia?, what about India? Do you see millions of white folk risking death to break into Snengal? Zimbabwe? What about Shrilanka? Or maybe Communist China?

'Card, you sound like good liberal. Lets all just 'understand" each other and then we'll all get along. Mean while, our culture is being changed so rapidly, that asimilation is not possible. Twenty or thirty years from now the United States of America will not resemble anything which made it great. You need to ask yourself, why can't these people work hard, obey the law, pay their taxes and build a better life...in their OWN COUNTRY?

'Card, before YOU throw the race card you had better check your logical premises. If there seems to be a contradiction, one or more of your premises is wrong.

On a final note, since YOU threw the Race card, Who wrote our Declaration of Independence? Who wrote our Constitution? Who INSISTED on the BILL of Rights? Was it a bunch of Chinese? Mestizos? Recent imigrants from Bangladesh? Think hard about this one...here it is. It was a bunch of Middle class and wealthy WHITE GUYS who owned property and guns. They wanted to ensure that every free man could attain property and generate his OWN wealth. They would detest the social welfare state as it has devolved to this date.

Understand the illegals? I understand that our culture is being destroyed by hostile take over, and our counry is being invaded by a foreign nation.
 
This is the same ole' rehashed thing, where crazed_ss and a couple others get the anti-illegal immigration squad to argue with them over the issue of immigration. They say, look, see, that's the problem. Yeah!

But honesty folks. All crazed_ss is really saying is a civil war is maybe a little much, and then questioning the ability of the electorate to think about the issue logically, and come up with real answers.

Most of us agree with the 2nd part. He is also giving the anecdote that in his personal life, he has never experienced problems because he doesn't speak Spanish, and has never been attacked for being an American and not of Hispanic descent.

No reason to doubt either assertion.

Personally, I believe that this is an invasion in which major corporations have rendered our laws nullified, they have sold out our country for cheap labour, and the Democrats have done so to attempt breaking the hold the Republicans have had in Southern and Western states.

While I think a war would be a while off, and require everyone making terrible choices, I don't think it an impossibility in the least.

That being said, in order to avoid a war, we need to win the peace, and brow beating our fellow Americans that don't understand the urgency of this situation will not win us the votes necessary to do that.

PS

To 'Card:

I'm all about dumping my office job where I sit down all day long and talk to people on a phone about credit cards but not for less than 35k per annum + benies. As long as the Mexicans can undercut manual labor and trades, and get those salaries to $7/hour w/ no benies, no retirement, and no future, Americans won't do those jobs.

It is a complete and utter lie that Americans won't do the manual trades. They just won't do them for the slave wages companies wish to offer, so of course the hard working Mexicans seem to favor these labour jobs.

The problem is that while Americans won't do labour jobs for slave wage, they won't go to school and get a 100k dollar education for a job an Indian will do for 1/5th or 1/6th of the salary. When American corporations go out of business bc their jobless consumers cannot afford the nice flaming sh*t they produced in China, they'll be utterly amazed. Short sighted idiots. just wish they didn't try to interfere in the free market, and keep small businesses from supplanting them.


edit: +1 Proficient Rifleman
 
Lone_Gunman said:
Is there any chance that your opinion of them might be possibly influenced by the fact that you can hire them for less, expect more work for them, and ergo increase your own profits?
Click to expand...
Good, honest question, and I'll be happy to give you an honest answer. Let me warn you right now, though - my answer isn't going to line up with your preconcieved notions, so you may be more comfortable skipping it.

There are two types of employers in this discussion. There are those who hire people that they know are illegal, pay them like crap and treat them like crap. I'm not going to deny that those folks are out there, but they're in the minority among employers. Those are the companies you see on the news getting big fines and such when they get busted by the INS, and they deserve it.

Most companies are kind of like me. I pretty much know that many of my employees are illegal immigrants, but (even though Biker calls for me to be lynched every time I say it) the law requires that I accept any documents that appear legal. Due to privacy concerns, the law also doesn't allow me to check the validity of these documents without some kind of valid reason - like if I was putting an employee into a security-sensitive position or something. I'm not, so I can't, and that's pretty much the end of it. The only way I'll ever find out if an employee's social security number (for example) is invalid is if the INS decides to conduct an audit of my payroll records. If they do, then they send me a letter saying "Such-and-such number is invalid", so I have to terminate that employee, and that's it.

Now, you might ask yourself why the social security administration doesn't check to see if these numbers are valid whenever I send them the payments from my new employee, right? Seems like it'd be easy for them to see if a number wasn't valid, or if it was assigned to some 80-year old woman in Nebraska, right? Once you understand why they don't do that, you'll have come a long way towards understanding who's really at fault here.

The point being that I have to treat all of these guys exactly as if they were legal citizens or immigrants with work permits. On what basis exactly could I pay them less? Green help, with no construction experience pays $11-per-hour with us. That may not sound like much among you northerners, but it's the going rate here in the south. Doesn't matter if you're latino, white, black, or whatever - that's the rate.

In fact, when our white or black entry-level help leaves us, it's usually to take a job where they pay less - so it isn't a pay issue at all. See, down at McDonald's or Wal-Mart, they're paying $10-per-hour, only there you don't have to work as hard, and you get to stay in the air conditioning all day. Nevermind that 5 years from now you'd be making $16-$18 an hour with us, and in that same 5 years you'll still be flipping burgers at McDonald's. All they are interested in is immediate comfort with less hard work. The Mexican guys on the other hand, still feel that construction is an honorable trade and a good career. They don't mind the work, and they don't mind the heat, and they go crazy for any training or advancement we offer them.

So is my company saving money by hiring huys who might be illegal? Maybe, but if we do it's because of increased productivity and reduced turnover - not because of paying lower wages. We'd be putting ourselves in a major legal bind if we tried crap like that. The second I bid on a Federal or State conract (which we do all the time) I'd have agents from the NC Wage & Rate Bureau practically kicking down the door of my office.


ProficientRifleman said:
'Card, you sound like good liberal.
Click to expand...
Cosmo said:
'Card is spewing the accepted White House line.
Click to expand...
*chuckle*

So which is it, guys? Am I a liberal or a Bush-buttboy now? :cool:

The bottom line is that I'm neither. I used to be a diehard conservative, but now that the Republican party is owned by the Christian right, I've taken to calling myself a libertarian. My politics though, are pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that I'm a reasonably intelligent, patriotic, redneck, hillbilly, independent-thinking military veteran who has seen this immigration mess up-close-and-personal for years now, and I simply feel differently about it than most of you guys. I wonder why you all find it so threatening when I interrupt your immigrant-bashing circle-jerks to say "Hey, you know - I used to feel the way you guys do, but I changed my mind"? Well, that's not true. I don't wonder about it. I understand it perfectly, but I won't insult you by stating the obvious.

As for this whole "Immigrant Civil War" thing... I mean, come on. If you want to huddle in the corner of your basement with your tinfoil hat, stroke your assault rifle and fantasize about SHTF scenarios, then more power to ya - but let's leave immigration out of it, OK? The whole idea is so absurd that it's laughable. Fantasize about bird flu, hurricanes, earthquakes or JBT's and I'll play along.

By the way, counting that last post, I've been called a liar now no less than 5 times in this thread. Do you guys think I'm just completely making this stuff up, or are you simply incapable of having an adult discussion with someone knowledgeable who doesn't share your opinion?
 
I tried my (admittedly limited) best to answer your question back in Post #61, Husker. The long and the short of it being that I think we need to find a solution to this mess just as much as anybody else does, but I think we can find a workable solution without pretending that A.) the sky is falling. -and- B.) All these immigrants are just sinister scumbag leeches who only want to corrupt our American way of life.
 
So which is it, guys? Am I a liberal or a Bush-buttboy now
Click to expand...

Have you been in a coma for the past year? BUSH IS A LIBERAL ON THIS ISSUE!

You're trying very hard to justify the fact that you approve of hiring illegals, up to and including claiming actual AMERICANS (remember us?) are too lazy to do the work. I'm sick of it. We're ALL sick of it. I don't know about a shooting civil war, but by god there's a civil war in the GOP RIGHT NOW and the pro-immigrant RINO's are going to be the first against the wall come November.

All these immigrants are just sinister scumbag leeches who only want to corrupt our American way of life.
Click to expand...

It's ILLEGAL immigrants, so quit trying to change the discussion to "immigrants."

Is there any chance that your opinion of them might be possibly influenced by the fact that you can hire them for less, expect more work for them, and ergo increase your own profits?
Click to expand...

BINGO!

Lock and load
 
Most companies are kind of like me. I pretty much know that many of my employees are illegal immigrants
Click to expand...


Yep, there it is, greed can make one rationalize anything.


So is my company saving money by hiring huys who might be illegal? Maybe, but if we do it's because of increased productivity and reduced turnover - not because of paying lower wages.
Click to expand...

Come on, please, it's about your gain.:banghead:
 
'Card

Mr. Bush isn't a conservative. He is, like his father, a New World Order globalist-socialist. The leftists in congress hate him because he is in power and they are not.

Mr. Bush wants to lead us to international socialism over the next decade or so. The Democrat powermongers in D.C. want to lead us to international socialism next week. Thats the only difference between them.

Clearly Mr. Bush lied to us when he said, in his recent televised address:

"In order to secure the border, we must have a guest worker program."

That is a blantant lie. In order to secure the border, we only need secure the border. What The President was really saying is, "I'm not going to go through the motions of securing the border unless I get a Guest Worker Program."

Either way, the invasion will continue. Folks who decry racism now will be fleeing like rats from the sinking ship of state when THEIR state is overrun with a foreign culture. Then they will remember the good old days when everybody got along...Jeez.

In the end, there will not be an assimilation. There will be greater Mexico in the Southwestern United States. I wonder where these migrants will migrtate to once they have completed the conversion.
 
Card, I am leaving you an open ended invite to my home. I would like to take you out to the local areas where illegal immigration has had the biggest effects. I believe that you are looking for the best in an issue that has no real upside. I was up all night cleaning up Mexico's mess, and theres no end in sight.
I have an intimate knowledge of the local illegal population, and while many work hard, the huge mess brought with that hard work is too much to ignore. Come out and I will show you that many of these same hard workers are not the angels they seem to be (of course that could also apply to anyone). The issue not whos "good" or "bad", its the fact that none of it is supposed to be my problem and its been forced upon me. I will take you to schools where classes are taught in Spanish, and very few can pass the high school exit exam-but dont worry those kids will still get a degree, we cant lower their self esteem. Come see the hospitals and how overcrowded they are-I can get into specifics here that choke me up. Come with me and see what I do on the border. There are illegal border crossers who thank God that I was there.
I am an honest and hard working man who hates nobody-but that does not mean that I cant speak out against anyone. If you see the real face of this issue, and where its headed, AND are honest to yourself, you will see things differently than you do now.
Please consider my offer Card. I am 100% on the level here.
 
For what it's worth, I believe you Davo. The people who aren't aware of the consequences of unbridled immigration should be required to spend a month on the front lines.
Best o' luck, Friend.

Biker
 
For what it's worth, I believe you Davo. The people who aren't aware of the consequences of unbridled immigration should be required to spend a month on the front lines.
Click to expand...

I see it daily so I understand and I will say those who hire illegals are a large part of the problem, the American taxpayer has no right to subsidize labor for your business.............
 
maybe hard working but the underlying truth is...they are undocumented and remain that way for a reason.they get cars without insurance for a reason,the get fake ids for a reason and they send money home for a reason.

much like an uninvited house guest who would break into your home and eat your food but cleans up after himself/herself and hides when everyone comes down for breakfast and notices all the milk,ojuice and eggs are gone.its not that hard to understand why its a hot topic fueled by money hungry business and greedy ceos and politicians that cant keep up with the outsourcing of products overseas and the demand for cheaper labor for greater profits while costs are skyrocketing for everyone..for everything.It smells of fraud and corruption,bigtime, its being exposed for what it is.

the legal immigrants do not like it either.
 
I see it daily so I understand and I will say those who hire illegals are a large part of the problem, the American taxpayer has no right to subsidize labor for your business.............
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Stopping Americans from hiring illegals is the only real solution to put a dent in the problem. Makeshift fences and more laws arent gonna do anything. This immigration thing is capitalism at its worst.. or best depending on who you talk to. When the labor oppurtunities for illegals dry up, then you should see a significant reduction on the people coming here.
 
Why not implement employer penalties and a physical barrier, SS?

Biker
 
Jeez... this should be so simple. Why can't they work hard and practice family values in their own country?

There is a mechanism for imigration. They are not using it. They are here illegally. They are not citizens, therefor they are aliens. They are illgal aliens and should be deported.

Saying that deportation is not realistic is a cop-out. It begins with a few.
 
Why not implement employer penalties and a physical barrier, SS?
Click to expand...

I'm all for employer penalties. IIRC, we already such laws on the books. Maybe harsher punishments would help, but only if the laws are actually enforced. I believe another problem is Americans want their cake and eat it too.

I was listening to a talk radio show a couple weeks ago and they were talking about prices of food and construction, etc. The host was saying how much he saved by getting illegals to do work on his deck and how he likes buying cheap strawberries. While he recognizes something has to be done about the illegal problem, he said he doesnt feel like paying more to get his deck refinished or paying 6 bucks for strawberries.

I fear many people have this thinking. Go down to any field here or any construction site and you'll see Mexicans toiling away. Common sense says many of them are illegals. It seems like the Border Patrol could just walk onto those fields or construction sites and shut everything down. Doesnt happen though.
 
I'm not for new laws, existing laws would serve us well if enforced.

Biker
 
Jeez... this should be so simple. Why can't they work hard and practice family values in their own country?
Click to expand...

Many do. But if you've ever been to Mexico, you'd see how hard it is. The rich Mexicans seem to control everything and they have no regard for their fellow Mexican citizens. It's terrible. I think there's a lot of racism in their society that is holding them down. On the surface you'll see Mexicans claiming how proud there are and how they are "La Raza", but when the people who control all the wealth in Mexico look nothing like the illegals crossing the border everyday.
 
crazed ss

Many do. But if you've ever been to Mexico, you'd see how hard it is. The rich Mexicans seem to control everything and they have no regard for their fellow Mexican citizens. It's terrible. I think there's a lot of racism in their society that is holding them down. On the surface you'll see Mexicans claiming how proud there are and how they are "La Raza", but when the people who control all the wealth in Mexico look nothing like the illegals crossing the border everyday.
Click to expand...

That is my point! Why do they not work hard to make their own country better? Instead they come here, chant "Viva la Raza!" and try to turn our country into greater Mexico.

Explain to me why this is a good idea?
 
That's a great idea.
Like some have stated in this thread, Mexico needs another revolution.
Unfortunately for us, it's easier for them to just come here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top