class III, Living Trust, Im lost!

[TonyStarks]

Ok, so i have read that people have been buying class III stuff legally by setting up a "living trust".

Why can you buy class 3 weapons with a living trust?

What exactly is this living trust? Is it a Will?

And How do you accomplish this?

Thanks

 

[Impax]

Try this thread
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270832

 

[Gun Trust Lawyer]

Gun Trust Information

Hi, I notice that you are from Florida, I am a Florida Gun Trust Lawyer and would be happy to answer any questions you have. In addition there is Florida Gun Trust Information my weblinks below

David Goldman

Florida Gun Trust Articles
Texas Gun Trust Articles

 

[Kharn]

You can buy it legally as an individual if you can get your sheriff/chief of police/judge/DA to sign the Form4 attesting that they do not know you to be a felon. Only go the trust route if you cant get their signature, as it has its own headaches.

Kharn

 

[cbrgator]

No a trust is not a will. Its a legal entity you can create to hold title to your assets in order to avoid fighting over said assets in probate should you die. The living trust can also hold title to NFA weapons and do not require the CLEO's signature to do so. You can set up for the trust for a very minimal fee and make yourself the trustor, trustee, and beneficiary (may want to add another beneficiary but thats up to you) Then you purchase the NFA weapons in the trusts name. Basically.... its a loophole.... but it works.

 

[Telperion]

make yourself the trustor, trustee, and beneficiary

No, you cannot make yourself the simultaneous trustor, trustee, and sole beneficiary. A trust is structured to separate the legal and equitable ownership of some property ... no separation, no trust. This is supposedly what made the ATF reject a trust form 4 one at least one occasion.

Read here, read Silencer Talk (silencertests.com), read the Nolo Press articles and books on estate planning, and keep reading. If you can't understand, then ask a lawyer as the NFA and ATF are not to be trifled with.

 

[cbrgator]

you are right, you need an additional beneficiary in case something happens to you

 

[KingTiger]

My local NFA dealer helped me set up a Revocable Living Trust, took about 15 minutes with Willmaker. This is the easiest/fastest way to get your Form 4 approved with the BATFE, IE no finger print cards or passport photos, or CLEO signature needed. State laws do vary, so what worked for me may not for you. Here's some info from their site.

http://www.politesocietyinc.com/cgi-bin/imcart/read.cgi?article_id=19&sub=9

 

[PTK]

Use Quicken WillMaker to set up a revocable living trust with yourself as Grantor and Trustee. I've transferred and obtained dozens of NFA items like that without an issue.

 

[Gun Trust Lawyer]

Dangers of Individual Ownership of NFA Items

If you CLEO signs your form 4 or form 1 you may have the same dangers as if you use a generic trust to purchase the items.

That is because you never know who will survive you. There is no way to adequatly prepare your personal representative with the knowledge that the items are class 3 items restricted by the NFA and that the possession or transfer of these items that is not in compliance with various state laws (based upon the location of the item, and the beneficiary) will subject both your personal representative and beneficiary to the criminal ( 10 years in jail) and the civil ($250,000 in fines and confiscation and destruction of the items) penalties.

So what does that really mean to us? - Your family and friends are placed in a bad position at the time you are incapacitated or die because they will not know what you have or how to deal with it properly. A NFA trust which is a high end estate planning trust with many specific modifications to deal with the unique aspects of class 3 weapon ownership is really a much better solution.

You can do the same with similar provisions in a corporation or LLC but those entities typically have annual costs associated with them.

 

[Kharn]

Gun Trust Lawyer:
Instructions in your will can fulfill the same function, plus the transfer from an estate to a designated recipient is tax-free.

Kharn

 

[Gun Trust Lawyer]

Instructions in Will as a solution

Although instructions in your will are useful, assuming that the will is found, read, and understood, it will not address the same types of issues a business entity like a trust, corporation, or LLC can. Individual ownership creates additional problems. Some of these involve the concepts of constructive possession, invalid possession, or unintended transfers. That can occur when:
1) someone knows the combination to your gun safe (your wife or a friend)
2) the Class 3 item is in a vehicle with other riders; or
3) if you allow someone else to shoot the weapon.

These all create serious problems under the NFA and can not be dealt with by an individual owner. On the other hand a Corporation, LLC, or Trust can resolve these issues if it is setup properly.

What happens in your will if you leave your Machine Gun to your son who is now five? Lets say he is 18, in college. Your will does not give your wife, or someone else the ability to say, wait a minute, maybe this is not a great idea right now, maybe we should look at it in a few years when he is ready or more mature.

What is your son is in college in California, New York, or somewhere where the items are prohibited. Your will cannot tell them not to transfer the items because of a geographical ineligibility.

In addition, with a trust, you can list your spouse, friends, relatives or children as co-owners, managers of the property and avoid the transfer taxes.


There are around 30 significant differences like the ones mentioned above in a properly drafted NFA trust as compared to individual ownership or using a generic trust.

If you are single, and have no wife, children, or relatives, you may not be concerned with these issues, but most people interested in these assets (class 3 weapons) have a substantial net worth and would not consider the risk a prudent move.

I am not saying that a trust is right for everyone and I have met many people that it is not necessary for, I just think that people should be able to make an educated decision and are sometimes blindsided by the acquisition issues and do not consider the long term effects of ownership.

 

[PTK]

2) the Class 3 item is in a vehicle with other riders; or
3) if you allow someone else to shoot the weapon.

As long as the legal owner/head of the LLC/Grantor/Trustee of the trust is there, these are perfectly legal.