Clean barrel vs. Fouled barrel

[BSA1]

I ran across this old photo and thought I would post it.

Experienced rifle shooters know that the first shot from a clean, cold barrel with have a different point of impact then the following rounds. Shooting from the same clean, cold barrel with oil still in it will also have the effect.

The photo shows how dramatic the difference can be. The gun was my Pedersoli Rolling Block in 45-70. I was shooting a 405 gr. cast lead bullet and IMR-3031 powder at 50 yards. While I know about the first shot from a clean barrel having a different p.o.i. I was very surprised at the amount of the difference. Notice how quickly the 2, 3, and 4th shots settled down and grouped very well.

Anyone how photographs of how other rifle cartridges group with clean and fouled barrels?

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Here is one, on initial testing of a Savage LRPV, @ 300 a few years back. You can see my target notes.

 

[captain awesome]

I have a Ruger 77 in 338 Winchester mag, nice glass bedded stock, McMillan if I remember right.. any way, every time I take it out, at a hundred yards the fouling shot is an inch high and half inch right, the next two shots are where they should be and touching. I am curious, I have not noticed it in any of my other rifles, but are yours that have the noticeable difference of impact point on the fouling shot predictable? Or is it random where the first bullet goes?

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Great info. Thanks for this thread!

 

[carbine85]

My .308 G2 Hunter is the same way. I just throw the 1st round down range and then shoot 5 round groups

 

[Garrobo]

Considering that just about all game is taken with the first shot through a cold barrel, unless you miss, it might be advisable to set your scope to take this into consideration. Since most animals which are considered "big game" here in N America and have anywhere from an 8-12" diameter kill zone, maybe it doesn't make that much difference. Though, if your shooting is primarily paper targets, this little issue might be somewhat disconcerting.

 

[SavageShooter2k]

I dont have a picture of any targets but I am seeing the same things everyone on here has been talking about. My first shot out of a cold, clean bore, with possible solvent still in the barrel shoots about a half inch higher and to the left of my fouled bore groups in my Savage 308. I actually wanted to try to get a better idea of how my cold bore shots would group so for three days I tested it. The first day I went out to my property and stapled a target to my plywood target holder. I shot my cold bore shot and then went inside. I cleaned the gun and then went back to doing activities around the cabin. The next day I woke up about the same time and sent another round down range on that target. Went inside cleaned, etc. Next day same thing. I end up with a clover leave that was about a half inch high and half inch left of the bulls eye at 100 yards. I would have done 5 shots had I been able to stay out there for 5 days. I have done this with three different rifles all with about the same results.

 

[Tirod]

Some of us don't take a cold oiled bore into the field for hunting. We check zero in the days prior and then leave the barrel alone.

Chromed or nitride barrels don't have problems with rust leaving the gun to sit for a few days. Carbon steel bores are the problem children.

If you shoot it a lot, a fouling shot every time at the range begins to count up. That would be $52 a year in commercial ammo prices for a once a week range session.

This is where the Low Price Guaranteed costs the American consumer in hidden "fees" when buying commercial off the shelf hunting rifles. They are high maintenance - and just one time forgetting to swab the bore can affect it.

I will never again buy a barrel that isn't chromed or nitrided. It's cheap insurance - but the makers know it is also a repeat sales killer when the barrel lasts much longer. It's all about churning the market.

 

[BCRider]

A plain steel barrel can be oiled to a pretty good consistency though if some thought is given to the process.

For example if a well oiled patch at the end is given to the bore then TWO dry patches are run down the length the resulting very fine coating of oil left is going to be pretty darn thin and consistent. The consistency coming from the dry patching spreading out and soaking up the excess oil. Particularly if the same sort of patches and exact same method are used every time.

After all, in terms of firearms history in hunting stainless steels for guns as well as chrome plating and nitriding of bores is all relatively recent. Our father's and those before had to deal with regular carbon steels for their barrels. So they figured out methods that worked and that still work.

The new stuff is nice for sure. But that doesn't mean that the guns that don't use them are second string if the owner knows how to treat them correctly.

 

[Cee Zee]

Most people don't think about this but the best hunting rifle has to be accurate on the first shot. There are some rifles that will do it. I don't deer hunt so the only rifles I use for hunting are .22LR. I have several of them. There is one brand that consistently hits on the first shot pretty much every time. I have other rifles that shoot far better once they get warmed up. My CZ 453 and my Savage MkBTV are both very accurate after a shot or two. But when I got hunting I'll take a Marlin with me every time. Every Marlin I own shoots accurate on the first shot.

BTW all of my rifles shoot funky after I clean them. My Savage MkII has to be fired about 25 times to really get back on track after a cleaning. And it has to all be the same ammo. Mixing ammo means mixing lube that's put on the ammo. It can affect accuracy and some rifles seem to be worse about having problems with it. Firearms are temperamental things. Being off a thousandth of an inch can mean missing pretty badly down range. Some rifles are easy to figure out but some are tough. It took me 18 months to work out the bugs in that MkII. I knew it could put out some good groups but it was inconsistent. Once I worked out all the little things that made it miss it started to sing. Now it's my most accurate rifle but that's only if everything is just right. It's a fine plinking or target shooting rifle or a varmint rifle but I wouldn't think about taking it hunting.

 

[MCMXI]

Experienced rifle shooters know that the first shot from a clean, cold barrel with have a different point of impact then the following rounds.

Really? I thought that experienced shooters will determine if a difference exists, and if so, what that difference is. I have some rifles that don't show a difference between cold/clean and hot/fouled and some that do.

 

[handloader357]

If my hunting rifle threw a cold round, I'd get a new hunting rifle!

 

[Cee Zee]

^^^^^
Ditto.

 

[Slamfire]

I am a regular small bore prone competitor. I don't know anyone who does not first throw a couple of rounds into the berm before shooting on paper. I have seen the point of impact change, from a clean barrel, to a fouled barrel, and it is not worth cluttering up the sighter bull with a fouling shot. If you talk to small bore prone shooters, some don't clean their barrel for thousands of rounds!

I also shoot a fouler when I change ammunition brands. I shoot one brand at 50 yards and another at 100. Bullet lube is different and I am willing to waste a couple of rounds, even though I don't have proof that it makes a difference in an already fouled barrel.

I have shot enough 600 yard matches to say, first shot out of a clean barrel, where it lands depends on the barrel. Older barrels, barrels with a lot of use, noticeably change zero as they foul. New barrels, hard to say, probably within my hold.

 

[Jim Watson]

My BPCRs need several fouling shots to settle down.

A local SWATter says his log book records cold/clean zero separately from a warm/fouled zero.

I know hunters who do not clean their bores after the start of hunting season, unless wetted, because they find a cold/fouled zero to not be much different from warm/fouled, if they have to fire multiple shots to get their critter.

 

[Cee Zee]

Bullet lube is different and I am willing to waste a couple of rounds, even though I don't have proof that it makes a difference in an already fouled barrel.

The bottom line is a person has to know their equipment. Every rifle is different. I know which rifle shoots a cold bore shot off zero and I know which ones shoot to the same spot on a cold bore and which ones group like a shotgun from a cold bore. I know which .22LR rifle will have problems with lube and which ones won't. These are the things that separate the good shooters from the really good shooters IMO (not that I'm a really good shooter but I know some and I know how regimented their routine is and I know they didn't work that out easily). It all boils down to practice and paying attention to what happens when you practice.

 

[merrill]

fouled barrels

Before I shoot the first shot. I spray brake cleaner through the barrel and then run a couple of swabs down the barrel and the poi is within an inch of where the bullets would strike from a fouled barrel.

 

[Tirod]

That one inch difference is pretty common. And when using a 2MOA effective gun at a 18MOA center of mass on a whitetail, it's pretty much not worth worrying about. There are a lot of other variables that are more important on a hunt, vs scoring one rank higher in competition.

The "accuracy is everything" mantra doesn't always work well in the field on live targets. Take things too far and you spend more time on efforts with no measurable return than is needed. Hunting is about hits, and hits are what count.

If we were talking prairie dogs at 500m then the subject has merit. At that point knowing your first shot's consistent out of group placement can then result in the needed shift to make a hit. And if it's not consistent, well, I don't thing trading off dozens of rifles to get just the one will be an effective answer. Other remedies should be pursued.

Brings up another consideration - does a cold bore shot from a fouled barrel have a different impact from the warm bore group? I haven't seen much on that - it's largely a discussion of cold - oiled. Entirely why some do shoot prior to the opening day. Most of the evidence seems to point to cold oiled bores having a difference, but very little on cold fouled.

I think it goes to the mindset of those who look into it - not swabbing the bore after a range session tend to be rare practice among them. For others, swabbing the bore at the end of the season is something we associate with tossing the game license into the trash. I did shoot .22 International in high school - we NEVER cleaned the bores, and they were only cleaned for summer vacation when we would be gone for three months. Apparently that was long enough for the Rangemaster to be concerned with corrosion.

Goes to those carbon steel barrels staying plenty clean enough if you shoot them two or three times a week. That's an interesting counterpoint considering the guns were ten years old and none had shown any loss of accuracy. Of course, they never saw the light of day unless being taken to a competition, too.

Goes to the saying, best way to clean a bore is shoot it. If all you do is remove the fouling that was making it more accurate, then why clean it at all?

 

[gamestalker]

When I'm sighting in for a hunt, I always use cold bore, as my first shot will obviously be cold.

When I'm punching paper I do things a little bit differently. I run several a minute or so apart to warm the barrel up. Once I've fouled and warmed the barrel up, I then stage my shots so the barrel will maintain an approximate temperature range. I won't shoot back to back rounds that keep getting the barrel hotter and hotter until I can't even touch it.

Then after 25 or 30 rounds I do a quick brush and solvent clean, and swab it out, just enough to remove fouling in the throat really, especially when I'm shooting loads with bullets that are jammed.

GS

 

[Cee Zee]

If we were talking prairie dogs at 500m then the subject has merit. At that point knowing your first shot's consistent out of group placement can then result in the needed shift to make a hit.

With p-dogs a person is probably going to get way more than just one shot at 500 yards. The whole thing is to find a p-dog town and go to war isn't it? The first warmup shot might as well be shot at the sun or something not quite so dangerous. It's the next 50 shots that count anyway.

As for not cleaning the fouling that's making your rifle shoot well I have rifles that I have "never" cleaned because they are shooting so well I don't want to go through the trouble of shooting a bunch of rounds to get them back to the point they are now. My Savage .223 has never had a swab down the bore. It shoots great. It isn't rusted or full of crud. I see no reason to clean it. It's stainless and good quality steel so I don't think corrosion is going to be a problem. It's not like I'm shooting corrosive primer rounds through it.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'm in the club that keeps their hunting rifles fouled through the season. On some of my rifles, if I foul the barrel and then run an oily patch and two dry patches through, the zero is not affected. The stainless rifles just have 2-3 shots put through them, and stay that way until they get wet or are finished drawing blood. That is one of the many reasons I prefer a stainless or nitrocarburized barrel.... It doesn't make as much of a difference on some rifles, but pretty much everything I have shoots it's best with a few down the tube, and that's how I prefer to hunt them.

 

[bush3755]

I think rimfire barrels need a few shots in a squeaky clean barrel to "season" it before accuracy is best. Smallbore match shooters do this regularly.

Good quality centerfire barrels starting out clean have no signifcant change of impact going from ambient temperature to way too hot to touch in my experience. Those that don't have a rough bore finish, poor fit to the receiver or poor stress relieving when made.