Cleaning with Mineral oil???????
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arcticap
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Like water, mineral oil clearly is a solvent.
And anything that helps to clean is a cleaner.
IIRC some soaps are also composed of lipids, and mineral oil is also a main ingredient of both Bore Butter and Ballistol.
IMO mineral oil would work to help lift & remove salts.
Why wouldn't it?
It's also used as a release agent on baking tins and trays:
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=922
And anything that helps to clean is a cleaner.
IIRC some soaps are also composed of lipids, and mineral oil is also a main ingredient of both Bore Butter and Ballistol.
IMO mineral oil would work to help lift & remove salts.
Why wouldn't it?
It's also used as a release agent on baking tins and trays:
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=922
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arcticap
Member
The by-products are mostly carbons.
I don't think that the answer is off topic at all considering that Ballistol works as a solvent and the original topic is about using mineral oil as a cleaner.
Maybe it just requires using more elbow grease.
But it serves a purpose and mineral oil is already widely known as being a lubricant.
I don't think that the answer is off topic at all considering that Ballistol works as a solvent and the original topic is about using mineral oil as a cleaner.
Maybe it just requires using more elbow grease.
But it serves a purpose and mineral oil is already widely known as being a lubricant.
While mineral oil won't hurt, you do need water to remove the corrosive salts. I will explain why.
Solvents are of two types: polar and non-polar. A polar solvent has a charge on the ends of the molecule. A non-polar solvent does not.
This has to do with where the electrons and protons are located. Protons are positively charged, electrons are negatively charged. Salts dissolve by breaking up into positive and negative ions. Opposite charges attract, and so the positive ion will go to a negative part of a solvent, and negative ions will go to a positive part of the solvent.
In a non-polar solvent, the either the protons or the electrons are all tucked into the middle of the molecule, and so there is no difference between one end of the molecule and the other. Think of it as a battery with only a negative terminal showing. You can't get a charge off of it. Mineral oil is a non-polar solvent. There is no place for the either the negative or the positive ion to go, and so it clings to the other ion. In fact, it will positively repel one of the ions and not admit it into solution. Because you can't have a single charge in isolation, the opposite charge on the salt refuses to go into solution as well. It is therefore inhibited from dissolving, although tiny amounts might be able to be removed. It will tend to cling to the metal due to electromagnetic forces.
In a polar solvent, there are exposed protons on one end and exposed electrons on the other end. This promotes dissolving the salts because it gives each ion someplace to go, and so they get tucked in between the solvent molecules. Water is a polar solvent, and so it dissolves the salts left over from black powder combustion.
Solvents are of two types: polar and non-polar. A polar solvent has a charge on the ends of the molecule. A non-polar solvent does not.
This has to do with where the electrons and protons are located. Protons are positively charged, electrons are negatively charged. Salts dissolve by breaking up into positive and negative ions. Opposite charges attract, and so the positive ion will go to a negative part of a solvent, and negative ions will go to a positive part of the solvent.
In a non-polar solvent, the either the protons or the electrons are all tucked into the middle of the molecule, and so there is no difference between one end of the molecule and the other. Think of it as a battery with only a negative terminal showing. You can't get a charge off of it. Mineral oil is a non-polar solvent. There is no place for the either the negative or the positive ion to go, and so it clings to the other ion. In fact, it will positively repel one of the ions and not admit it into solution. Because you can't have a single charge in isolation, the opposite charge on the salt refuses to go into solution as well. It is therefore inhibited from dissolving, although tiny amounts might be able to be removed. It will tend to cling to the metal due to electromagnetic forces.
In a polar solvent, there are exposed protons on one end and exposed electrons on the other end. This promotes dissolving the salts because it gives each ion someplace to go, and so they get tucked in between the solvent molecules. Water is a polar solvent, and so it dissolves the salts left over from black powder combustion.
Pancho
Member
Happybrew sure knows his stuff and 4v50 sure knows how to be practical.
jwr747
Member
I can see the mess now.mixing mineral oil and BP residue,will be like a black face cream. I am not Mr. Clean,and I can see me,up to my elbows in this black oily mess. stick to water. jwr
arcticap
Member
I understand the concept about the salts, and I do appreciate the explanation.
But not everyone shoots using black powder.
And the other powders have totally different formulas.
Also, the carbon portion of the fouling are not all salts, are they?
So using mineral oil as a cleaner is not only about absorbing BP salts, but about releasing them and carbon from the surface of the metal physically with the help of a combination lubricant/solvent/cleaner.
So the question then becomes whether, in addition to the carbon, can any of the salts be removed by physically rubbing them off with a mineral oil laden patch or brush, and what percentage of them will be left behind?
How could the amount of residual salts be measured using a uniform method?
I don't know of many folks who claim to use a single cleaner either, even if the cleaner is mostly water other ingredients are usually mixed in.
I use multiple cleaning agents and I don't shoot with black powder or use water.
And I was mostly responding to the assetion that mineral oil is not a cleaner or a solvent.
If over 90% of BP residue is carbon ash, then mineral oil should clean better than 90%.
Some folks use spit for a wet patch, others use alcohol.
Some folks mix Ballistol with water and spray it on.
If substitute powder residues don't contain the same salts, then mineral oil can be used as a solvent/cleaner, no doubt with some kind of effectiveness.
I just wanted to keep the discussion about mineral oil real and to not so readily dismiss it as being worthless as a cleaner which is the question in the OP.
But not everyone shoots using black powder.
And the other powders have totally different formulas.
Also, the carbon portion of the fouling are not all salts, are they?
So using mineral oil as a cleaner is not only about absorbing BP salts, but about releasing them and carbon from the surface of the metal physically with the help of a combination lubricant/solvent/cleaner.
So the question then becomes whether, in addition to the carbon, can any of the salts be removed by physically rubbing them off with a mineral oil laden patch or brush, and what percentage of them will be left behind?
How could the amount of residual salts be measured using a uniform method?
I don't know of many folks who claim to use a single cleaner either, even if the cleaner is mostly water other ingredients are usually mixed in.
I use multiple cleaning agents and I don't shoot with black powder or use water.
And I was mostly responding to the assetion that mineral oil is not a cleaner or a solvent.
If over 90% of BP residue is carbon ash, then mineral oil should clean better than 90%.
Some folks use spit for a wet patch, others use alcohol.
Some folks mix Ballistol with water and spray it on.
If substitute powder residues don't contain the same salts, then mineral oil can be used as a solvent/cleaner, no doubt with some kind of effectiveness.
I just wanted to keep the discussion about mineral oil real and to not so readily dismiss it as being worthless as a cleaner which is the question in the OP.
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Yes, a large portion of the salts can be mechanically removed, but not enough. I tried this once. I actually used mineral oil. I had a nice shiny bore, nice shiny cylinders, and the next week there was a nice layer of rust all over. The problem is that the salts will actually adhere to the metal chemically, and cannot be removed mechanically. They will continue to promote rust by attracting water.
BHP FAN
Member
''The problem is that the salts will actually adhere to the metal chemically, and cannot be removed mechanically...''
bingo.HOT water is what was used,and what is specified in an original Trapdoor Springfield manual.Dish soap is not necessary,but is a surfactant,which makes the job easier.
bingo.HOT water is what was used,and what is specified in an original Trapdoor Springfield manual.Dish soap is not necessary,but is a surfactant,which makes the job easier.
Gatofeo
Member
Salt causes rust in iron and steel.
Salt is dissolved by water.
Water gets down into the tiny crevices of steel and pulls it out.
Once dissolved in water, the salt is carried away from the surface of the steel.
Mineral oil is far more expensive than water.
Water has been used to clean black powder fouling for a thousand years, and more recently for black powder substitutes.
Nothing beats it, especially if you add a little soap to the water to cut the greases and oils used as lubricant.
The manufacturers of black powder solvents love to claim that their product is better or easier than soapy water but you still clean the same way.
Nothing dissolves salts, and floats away assorted crud, better than soapy water.
I've tried a variety of cleaners since 1971 and always return to soapy water.
There's a reason: It's cheap, it's readily available and it works as well or better than anything else out there.
Salt is dissolved by water.
Water gets down into the tiny crevices of steel and pulls it out.
Once dissolved in water, the salt is carried away from the surface of the steel.
Mineral oil is far more expensive than water.
Water has been used to clean black powder fouling for a thousand years, and more recently for black powder substitutes.
Nothing beats it, especially if you add a little soap to the water to cut the greases and oils used as lubricant.
The manufacturers of black powder solvents love to claim that their product is better or easier than soapy water but you still clean the same way.
Nothing dissolves salts, and floats away assorted crud, better than soapy water.
I've tried a variety of cleaners since 1971 and always return to soapy water.
There's a reason: It's cheap, it's readily available and it works as well or better than anything else out there.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Gatofeo +1 on real hot soapy water!
RSVP2RIP
Member
I think I might start bottleing soapy water and selling it as black powder solvent. Thats what the consumer wants right? Water is free in public places, yet bottled water is a multi billion dollar industy. I'll call it "Aquacleana".
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