Close the Loopholes in the MO CCW Law...Another Panic Striken Post Dispatch Editorial

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Jeff White

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By george, you may have won the right to carry concealed weapons, but we certaininly must limit the places you can carry them to your own private property. It seems to me that in the last couple states to win freedom the antis just aren't giving up. Why the scorched earth policy now that most of the country lives where concealed carry is permitted?
Jeff

CONCEALED WEAPONS Guns in public

03/08/2004

MISSOURI'S CONCEALED-WEAPONS LAW goes on for page after page after page listing places where people shouldn't carry concealed guns. It almost sounds onerous.

There are 17 categories in all: police stations, polling places, jails, courthouses, government buildings, bars, airports, colleges, schools, child-care centers, gambling boats, gated amusement parks, churches, hospitals, private property where signs are posted, sports arenas and stadiums and anywhere federal law prohibits guns.

But then the law takes it all back. Carrying a gun in those public places is prohibited, but it's not a crime. The only punishment is a small fine. So, a person can carry a gun into any public place anytime he wishes, knowing he won't go to jail even if he's caught.

In short, the state's new concealed-weapons law is not the safe, restrictive, moderate law that its sponsors promised. This is a grab-your-six-shooter law. The restrictions are a farce.

When a person violates the law's restrictions by, let's say, taking a concealed gun into a crowd at Busch Stadium or the Savvis Center, he can be asked to leave - if anyone notices the gun he's concealing. If he leaves, no harm no foul. He merely can put the gun in his car and get back to the game; that's the same drill women have to follow if they try to bring an oversize purse into a ballpark.

If the person with the gun refuses to leave, authorities can call the police, who can issue a ticket for not more than $100. If the person comes back nine months later and does the same thing, he gets another $100 ticket. The permit holder retains the right to carry a concealed gun and can repeat the offense nine months later with the same slap on the wrist.
If the police are called twice within six months to remove a belligerent gun-toter, the fine can go up to $200, and the permit to carry is suspended for a year. A third violation, within a year of the first, carries a $500 fine and the permit to carry is revoked for three years.

The same situation applies in stores, offices and factories, even if there is a sign on the door banning guns. Of course, your boss could fire you for bringing a gun past that sign. But the restaurant or grocery or department store only could ask you to take your gun back to your car.

Despite the prohibition against guns in schools and churches, a school official or minister can give a parent or teacher or parishioner permission to bring a concealed gun into the classroom or sanctuary. Anyone bold enough - or crazy enough - can march into school or church with a non-concealed gun because the new law repealed the part of the old law that made that behavior illegal. It also repealed the old law barring other concealed weapons, such as knives, from schools and churches.

Bars can tell patrons to keep their guns in the car. But a bartender can let his regulars belly up while packing heat.

The Legislature must close the dangerous loopholes and give Missourians a tough law that keeps guns out of the places where they eat and shop and worship.

Coming Friday: Guns in cars :uhoh:
 
hey, it works in 36 other states, if people from Missouri are that untrustworthy even after a background check then maybe the author should move to nice and safe Chicago were they dont let peons do things like carry a gun
BSR
 
On a somewhat related note I found this in this mornings KC Times/Star
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/[email protected]&KRD_RM=2mkqpiiknrknqiiiiiiiiiinjo|Robert|Y
Sheriff halts weapons permits

Hundreds applied to Pennsylvania county

By TIM HOOVER

The Kansas City Star


JEFFERSON CITY — A Pennsylvania sheriff has stopped taking applications for concealed-weapons permits from Missourians until he can resolve questions over a Missouri Supreme Court ruling.

For weeks Centre County, Pa., Sheriff Denny Nau's office has been flooded with applications from Missourians seeking out-of-state concealed-weapons permits. For $19, people from other states can apply to Pennsylvania for a nonresident permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Missouri law allows residents to carry concealed weapons if they have a permit from other states.

“The last few weeks (the applications) have been overwhelmingly from Missouri,†Nau said. “All of a sudden, we were getting 200 a day.â€

His office estimated it had received 650 mailed applications and 500 telephone calls in the last week from Missourians seeking Pennsylvania permits. The office typically issues about 150 permits a month, but Nau estimated it had issued 400 in the last month, of which maybe 300 were to Missourians.

The requests have been pouring in from the Show-Me State ever since Nau's office was featured on a Web site called www.packing.org, which had a copy of a concealed-carry license issued by Centre County. Applications from Missourians became even more numerous after a Supreme Court ruling Feb. 26 that said the state's concealed-weapons law imposed an unfunded mandate on counties.

The law allows Missourians age 23 and older to receive licenses to carry concealed weapons if they pass a background check and undergo firearms training. The law allows sheriffs to charge as much as $100 to process the applications, $38 of which would cover the costs of background checks.

The Supreme Court ruled, however, that the $38 was an unfunded mandate on counties in violation of the state's Hancock Amendment. It also said that sheriffs could not keep anything over the actual costs of processing the applications because that would be a tax increase without approval of local voters.

Missouri Attorney General Jay Nixon advised counties to hold off taking applications for concealed-weapons permits until lawmakers were able to enact cleanup legislation to fix the unfunded mandate problem. Nixon said there could be legal challenges if sheriffs issue permits before a legislative fix.

Because of all the problems with the law, Nau has stopped taking applications from Missourians and has taken the downloadable application off his Web site.

“We've sort of put things on hold for now,†he said, explaining that news accounts of the ruling and subsequent actions by some Missouri sheriffs have left him confused.

Under Pennsylvania law, nonresidents must obtain a concealed-carry permit in their own states first — if it is available — before attempting to obtain a Pennsylvania permit.

Nau said he is unclear if Missourians can or can't get concealed-weapons permits.

“I'm still confused,†he said. “I read one day that all counties but four can get a license to carry, but then I turn around and see the attorney general saying, ‘I don't want anyone issuing.' Another day I see where so-and-so can get a license to carry.â€

Nau said his state's law is intended to allow people from other states to carry concealed weapons while in Pennsylvania. Sometimes, he said, it's been crystal clear that's not why some Missourians want a permit from his county.

“I actually did have one e-mail from a guy who said, ‘Could you send me an application? They want $100 here.' †Nau said. “I wrote him back and said, ‘No, that's not a reason to get one here.' â€

Kevin Jamison, president of the Western Missouri Shooters' Alliance and an attorney from Gladstone, said the Pennsylvania concealed-weapons permit was popular because it was fairly easy to get.

For a $19 application fee, plus $1 to cover the costs of laminating and mailing, the Centre County Sheriff's office would process an application from a nonresident. The applicant did not have to send fingerprints or proof of firearms training and only had to submit a copy of a driver's license for a background check.

“They had a quick turnaround, it was inexpensive and you didn't have to jump through as many hoops,†said Jamison, who applied for one himself and said he had been approved.

If Missourians can't get concealed weapons licenses from Pennsylvania, they have another option, he said.

For $117, Florida will issue a concealed-weapons permit to a nonresident who passes a background check and submits proof of firearms training. Fingerprints are not necessary.

“There's a demand for these licenses and people are going to go where they can get them,†Jamison said.

To reach Tim Hoover, Jefferson City correspondent , call (816) 234-7141 or send e-mail to

thoover@kcstarcom
 
Yes!

Let's close all the dangerous loopholes that allow peole to carry guns in churches, malls, restaurants, shops, public property, private property, outdoors, indoors...:scrutiny:

I just continued his thoughts to the (in his mind) logical conclusion.

How long till his rant about "high-capacity folding stock armor-piercing cop-killing spray-firing-from-the-hip assault weapons in our streets and schools"?
 
BAD Editorial about Missouri Concealed-Carry

I just read this article in the Webster-Kirkwood Times (local St. Louis, MO county paper). It is flagrantly anti-rights and offers multiple lies per paragraph. I encourage any eloquent and informed writers out there to reply to both the paper (http://www.timesnewspapers.com/) or to the author (Don Corrigan -- [email protected]). I know I will. Let's keep the activism on the move and always take the high road. Freedom isn't free ;) .

Link to Article

Cut-and-Paste of article follows:

Conceal-Carry
Mixed emotions on court's recent conceal-carry ruling
by Don Corrigan
Conceal and carry proponents are pleased with last week's 5-2 state Supreme Court decision turning back a challenge to the constitutionality of the gun law. Local opponents to the law said they'll meet soon in response to the court's action.

"We have been in a holding pattern, waiting to see what happens in the court," said Margaret Eaton of Citizens for Sensible Public Policy. "Now that the court has ruled, we will meet later this month (March 30) at the Kirkwood Community Center.

"We know a lot of people who are angry and disappointed," said Eaton of Webster Groves. "This bill is a disaster, whether it's the guns on school property, the underfunded permits, or the bigger issue of having our democracy overturned in this state by the power of NRA (National Rifle Association) money."

Duaine Zeitz, a member of the Second Amendment Coalition and the Brentwood-based Gateway Civil Liberties Association, said he thinks Missouri is now one more piece in the puzzle to have concealed weapons legal in all 50 states.

"Our Supreme Court basically got it right," said Zeitz. "The law is going to be hung up a little bit over the funding of the permit process, but the legislature's already got a bill ready to clear up that problem. The worst that can happen is that full implementation will be delayed for a few months."

In its ruling, the Supreme Court expressed reservations over whether the process for conceal and carry permits is adequately funded. As a result some sheriffs in the state are waiting for the legislature to address that problem, while other sheriffs are handling permit applications.

Because the law allows people to carry concealed weapons in Missouri with valid permits from other states, some citizens have acquired permits from Pennsylvania and Florida where gun education and training standards are more lax.

Sen. Ken Jacobs, D-Columbia, has introduced new legislation that would: forbid carrying hidden guns with permits from other states; prohibit weapons in libraries, schools and banks; outlaw carrying a firearm in a vehicle without a permit -- an unforeseen consequence of last year's conceal and carry bill.

"I don't think the Jacobs' bill is a good bill," said Zeitz. "It's a waste of money and a waste of time discussing it. This is a stalling tactic. We expect that. This kind of stuff has happened in all the states where conceal and carry has passed.

Another Statewide Vote

"I don't think people have to accept this," said Eaton. "The majority of Missourians don't want concealed weapons. They said that in 1999. If we have to bring it to a vote of the citizens again, then that should happen.

"At the federal level, we now have Congress talking about ending the ban on assault weapons, and immunizing the gun sellers from any liability," noted Eaton. "I think people are going to rebel against the NRA calling the shots for us at the local and national level."

Eaton said her group will protest a visit by Republican gubernatorial candidate Matt Blunt at Orlando Banquet Center in South County this week. Blunt has been a backer of the NRA-supported gun legislation. Eaton said her group also will examine the requirements for getting enough signatures to put an anti-concealed weapons measure back on the ballot in Missouri.

"We know that education groups and restaurant associations are very unhappy about all this," said Eaton. "We are going to see what kind of statewide network can be put together on this problem in our state."

Zeitz said he thinks Missourians would vote for concealed weapons in the new post-9/11 environment. He said he does have some concerns about another vote in Missouri

"Can we really get a fair shake in this election process?" asked Zeitz. "Proposition B passed by 4-1 margins in most places in the state in 1999. Then all these 'no' votes started coming in from the political machine-controlled areas of St. Louis and Kansas City. Then it all gets blamed on some computer glitch."

Jeanne Kirkton, a Webster Groves resident and past leader of an area Million Mom March group, said the anger remains high against local legislators who voted for conceal and carry, especially after residents voted as much as 70 percent against concealed weapons in 1999.

"These legislators told us that this was the safest bill we could get and that it was inevitable," said Kirkton. "So now look at all the loopholes we have: guns in cars on school lots without a permit, a bungled permit process, easy permits from other states to carry guns in our state.

"It's a mess that is going to end up in all sorts of lawsuits," said Kirkton. "It should be clear now that there are enough loopholes in this gun bill to drive a truck through."

--Don Corrigan ([email protected])
 
Don't ya love it when these people in the press publish outright lies? :cuss:

For $117, Florida will issue a concealed-weapons permit to a nonresident who passes a background check and submits proof of firearms training. Fingerprints are not necessary.
Click to expand...

When did Florida stop requireing the submission of fingerprints with CCW permit applications? :rolleyes:
 
(bump)

I like how it's a "loophole" that the people accidentally get some of their rights back.
 
I sent the link to some St. Louis area relatives that live close to the community in question.

My people are pro-rights, however. My brother in law just might write and give his opinion.

Another statewide popular vote could be disasterous, condidering what happened last time on Prop B.

I think that if this new CCW law can survive a year or so, we will be ok when most people figure out that we won't have a re-creation of the "wild, wild west".
 
I am told that this sort of backlash has happened in all of the states that have passed a shall-issue bill. We need to keep the pressure on, though, on all levels of government -- and keep the journalists honest!!
 
The legislative intent behind a bill is not a "loophole."

Thus the fact that a bill intended to let people carry firearms legally to defend themselves actually allows people to carry firearms legally to defend themselves is . . . . that's right, kids. . . . . not a loophole.

Lather, rinse, repeat.



Don't feel bad. Our newspapers don't have a CCW law to kick around, so they're reduced to lying about the AWB renewal. The Springfield State Journal Register claimed last week that the AWB bans "Uzi Machine Guns" and that it keeps 19 types of guns "off the streets" which will be legal again in September. Never heard of pre-ban and post-ban, obviously.
I sent the requisite letter and offer to be a source on gun information. I expect nothing at all to come of that and am thus unlikely to be disappointed, even though I've found the editorial board to be thoroughly disappointing people. :rolleyes:
 
If I may, on the subject of closing those dangerous "loopholes", how about closing the HYSTERICAL, LYING MEDIA LOOPHOLE??

Freedom of the press is important, BUT does freedom of the press include freedom to lie?? I wouldn't have thought so, but I have been wrong before, at least a couple of times.
 
CasualShooter,
John O Jones introduces that bill every year. It never makes it out of committee and won't until we get more people like him in the statehouse. It does get play in the newspapers down here.

The deadline for committees to get bills onto the floor has passed. It's not going anywhere again this year.

Jeff
 
Jeff White,

I figured it was probably something like that. My wife has relatives in Illinois, one of my sons lived there for awhile, and some of the people I went to school with were from there. Lots of good people there. It's too bad that Chicago exerts such a bad political influence over the entire state. Some good people in Chicago, too. Why do they elect such poor Officials? :(

If we can bring Kansas, Nebraska and Wisconcin to allow CCW, and I believe that it's only a matter of a short while now, then perhaps we can even get Illinois to Join.

If John O Jones will keep introducing it, at some point it will catch on if he has the active support of Illinois Gun Owners.

From what I have observed over the last several months via other posts on this board, it seems that a good start would be a focused group of pro CCW Leadership to lead the Illinois State Rifle Association. :)

At any rate, all of us at THR will be pulling for Illinois to join the ranks of the (Relatively) free states and to adopt a CCW Statute ASAP. :)
 
sounds to me like the "loohole" puts the power into the property owners hands..which is how it should be.....besides like most of us with brains know, no gun law is going to prevent a crime....

just like the "unload a gun , have it locked back, in clear view" when getting pulled over. well common since tells us that only someone who isnt going to shoot an officer is going to do that...there for not preventing anything....only causing good people to drive around with their mag in the glove box.....

no gun law works......there shouldnt be one law.....in fact thats what the constitution says.

Only law id vote for would be for no illegals to be able to purchase a firearm...but then you create a black market....again..no gun laws actual work...
 
stlstevens said:
My old grandpa said to me
'Son, there comes a time in every man's life
when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and
Click to expand...

Why did you decide to resurrect a thread from 2004 for your first post, and then make your reply off topic to that ancient thread?

Odd.
 
thread from 2004?
What the heck happened here?

stlstevens, welcome to THR, that bit you posted has been posted and re-posted so many times I doubt it could be counted.
If you have anything to add to the discussion, I'd recommend you start with threads from after 2009 if at all possible.
 
I think this just might be the winner for the oddest reason to resurrect a thread ever.

A six year old thread brought back to life with a non sequitur!

I'm wondering what the search string was that brought up this thread from all the many thousands of other threads that might have been a better fit. Perhaps if only the very last paragraph had been posted it would have made sense.
 
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