Closing bolt on round: Mauser Extractor

[jstein650]

Easy question: There is another thread running on Push Feed vs. CRF etc. and honestly there are too many replies to read through. However, the subject of being/not being able to close a Mauser bolt on a chambered round has come up. I have an 1895 Chilean 7x57, 2 fairly recent Ruger's, one in .223, the other in 30'06.
With any brass, S&B, Win., R-P, RWS, etc. I can slip a round in and almost effortlessly snap the extractor over the rim of said chambered round. I've been told 'you can't do that' on military Mauser's. What am I missing?

 

[jmr40]

On older Mausers you cannot easily do it unless the extractor is modified. Most, if not all modern Mauser actions come from the factory designed to load directly into the chamber and have the extractor snap over the rim

It is possible on most of the older military guns to press on the middle of the extractor as the bolt is being closed and flex the claw part of the extractor enough to get it to snap over the rim of the cartridge. I understand this method was used at times during both WW's in an effort to load 1 more round.

 

[c.latrans]

Look closely at the extractor on your Mauser. Has a bevel been ground into the face of it or is it flat and block like. It was common in those days to bevel the extractor to allow topping off, especially on guns being converted to sporters. Once you see them side by side the idea is as clear as the nose on your face.

 

[jstein650]

Wow. Here is a pic of the boltface. The extractor is clearly beveled. This was from what in every respect was an original 'MAUSER CHILENO 1895 ... LOEWE, BERLIN' full length stock, cleaning rod, everything... that's why I doubted anyone ever altered it. Beautiful rifle, BTW.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Could have been done that way at the arsenal.

 

[c.latrans]

Thats what the look like. Could have been an arsenal job as mentioned, or a gunsmith could have done it at some point. No way to know that I am aware of, but it is what it is, and they ARE beautiful!

 

[Andrew Leigh]

If I think I understand your problem perhaps this will help. All the Mauser actions I have shot with need to feed from the magazine in order for the extractor claw to close over the case and to feed.

You cannot loosely lay the round in the breech, although it will push the round forward as it gets into the chamber there is no place for the extractor claw to open out to accept the case so it will not chamber.

The round must be depressed into the magazine.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Unless the extractor has been beveled as shown above. Then it is able to flex at the middle of the bolt and jump over the casehead. This allows loading directly into the chamber instead of feeding only from the magazine.

It's also supposedly harder on the extractor to do this. That's why I load all of mine from the magazine, beveled or not.

 

[jstein650]

But this is what I'm saying. If I start a round in the chamber, with the bolt clear back, the bolt will push it in and quietly snap the claw over the rim and go into battery no problem. It will extract cleanly whether I engage the bolt lugs, or just pull it gently out and let the ejector push it out and clear.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Exactly. However, just because the extractor has been modified so that it physically can slip over the case head when you're sliding a round into the chamber, it does not mean that it is good for the extractor to do so.

The stress present on the blade of the extractor is much greater when snapping over the rim of the case than when allowing the case to slide up the bolt face from the magazine as designed. That is why I load all of mine through the magazine. It really isn't that hard to push down the follower and do it the right way.

 

[jstein650]

Point taken. And I do agree that 'can do' doesn't necessarily mean 'should do'. I do think, however that I may have been blessed with a really good and precise Mauser. The mere weight of the bolt handle will almost chamber a round, from the magazine, or just rattling around there on top. And I only shoot neck sized reloads! Anyway...

 

[cal30_sniper]

Yeah, those Chilean 95s are the smoothest Mauser action ever designed. Even if it's not nearly the most accurate rifle in my gun rack, I reach for it more often than anything else when something needs to be shot in style. I really wish Mauser had stuck with the left lug rail guide rib instead of switching to the upper bolt body guide rib. I can only imagine how beautifully my FN Commercial action would cycle if they'd kept that awesome little feature. Ah, the terrible changes so often made to simplify production...

 

[jstein650]

Tell me about that. I see the rib that ejects the round, but the raceway that seems to guide the bolt looks the same as my Ruger. The Mauser '95 is like silk, and I haven't been able to put my finger on just what the major mechanical differences there are that make such a difference.

 

[simonjester]

We had this issue with a new Ruger M77 hawkeye, we could not put a round in the chamber and close the bolt, while an older M77 would close just fine.

I called up Ruger and they explained it was the design of the new CRF bolt to work this way and you could indeed close the bolt on the round but it requires an amount of force to get the bolt extractors to slip over the round's rim. Its way too much form then I like to apply to a round.

What I discovered as the easiest is to chamber the round at the back of the action, pushing slightly down on the rear of the round while moving the bolt forward. This allows the bolts extractors to grab onto the round and the round is now captured under the CRF system.

 

[jmr40]

Older military rifles are one thing. On a Ruger Winchester, Kimber, or any other modern CRf rifle you can safely load directly into the chamber If not something is wrong with the gun. It won't hurt a thing on these guns. I've seen a few where there was a tad more resistance but that is still normal

 

[Curator]

On most original M98 Mausers the extractor needs to be both beveled and "thinned" so it can snap over the rim of a chambered cartridge without causing damage to the extractor itself. The inside of the action will interfere with the extractor's movement if not thinned and beveled correctly, breaking off the extractor blade. Depressing the middle of the extractor will only work where there is sufficient clearance for the extractor to flex sufficiently to snap over the rim. Correct procedure is to load all cartridges in the magazine and work the bolt to feed cartridges into the chamber.

 

[sage5907]

Quote: "Depressing the middle of the extractor will only work where there is sufficient clearance for the extractor to flex sufficiently to snap over the rim."

I agree, in most modern mauser actions like the FN deluxe, the FN supreme or the pre 64 Model 70 the extractor body is stiff and will resist jumping over the cartridge rim without possible damage to the extractor. I've been shooting Mauser type actions for 50 years and wouldn't think of jumping the extractor over a case rim. If the extractor is sprung the case will be extracted out of the chamber but it will fall out of the extractor before it is ejected. This situation is very agrivating and requires a gunsmith heat the extractor head and bend it back into shape.

 

[Slamfire]

Regardless if the extractor is beveled or not, feed from the magazine. That extractor is thin and forcing it to bend out of the way will cause it to break someday.

I had that experience with a M1903 extractor. Tried closing the bolt on a dummy round and the extractor broke. Obviously had been done too many times for that extractor.