Cold Blueing Inquiry

[The Avatar of Time]

Hello All,

I have a couple of rifles that require reblueing. Complete reblueing that is, which I realize is not an ideal use for cold blue. Unfortunately it is my only option at this time so I'm trying to make the most of it. I'm seeking opinions, tips, tricks, etc. to get the best possible results.

For curious minds the rifles that I'm reblueing are:

1.) A special edition Model 94 Winchester 30-30 with an octagon barrel and saddle ring.

2.) A Gamble Stores Inc. Pioneer Model 26 tube fed, bolt action .22lr. It's actually a Savage model 5B or 86E I believe, sold under that store name. I'm blueing this rifle first. Since it doesn't really matter it gets to be the experiment. I've started on the barrel as a test.

I have some Hoppe's No.9 gun blue that I'm using at the moment and I also have a Birchwood Casey Perma Blue kit that I was planning to use on the more important rifle. Which of the two do you guys prefer? Or is there little or no difference?

This is the process I use, so feel free to correct and advise as needed:

For metel preperation I sand and then use steel wool on everywhere I can get to, then wipe off with a rag. To degrease I put some alcohol on a paper towel and wipe down the gun, then I wipe it dry with another clean paper towel. Is it a good idea to wipe it dry or should I let it air dry? Should I wipe the alcohol off with water as well before blueing? Also I have some 'Mean Green' degreaser that I haven't tried yet, does anyone have any experience with it? I am wearing rubber gloves so as not to touch the metal barehanded. I've tried sticking a cleaning rod through the barrel to hold, but that isn't stable enough to apply the blue properly.

For applying the blue I'm using a paper towel that I pour blueing onto to wipe down the barrel and then I follow up with q-tips to try and even it out. Are there better methods for applying the blueing? I have heard of some people using steel wool, but I've also heard that steel wool has oil in it, so with the exception of that Oxpho blue this seems counter productive.

The time to leave it set is something I'm curious about. Hoppe's says to leave it three minutes whereas Birchwood Casey says about thirty seconds and stresses not leaving it on too long. Why is that? What does being on longer do? I've read where some people talk about leaving it on all night. One person used oil instead of water to rinse it off as well.

To stop the oxidation after the three minutes I am using water from the faucet in the bathtub. I get it as warm as I can stand and run it over the metal that I'm blueing while rubbing it a bit with my hand (in rubber gloves). Should I be rubbing it or touching it at all? If I don't it doesn't seem to stop oxidizing as well. Once I've rubbed it a bit I turn the water up to steaming hot and get the metal heated up, it dries quicker this way. I then finish drying it with a paper towel. I also try to get the next coat of blue on while the metal is still hot, but I can't work that fast, it's midly warm by the time I get it dry and start blueing. Can I put the blueing on before it's completely dry? I should think not since water is what stops the process.

Also, I have hard water and I'm not sure how bad that is for the process? I shouldn't think it would really be any worse than soft water, since that has a bit of salt in it, but hard water does like to corrode so...... Ideally I suppose I should use distilled water, but that seems impracticle.

Then I add more blue with a paper towel and/or q-tips, then rinse and so on. Should I be degreasing it again in between blueing sessions though? What about rubbing it with steel wool? If rubbed with steel wool it must be degreased correct?

I have blued part of the barrel a couple times now. The first time I did it, after sanding I washed it with a scotch pad using soap and water. Then I alcoholed it. I blued about six inches of the barrel and it blued really nice. It looked great, perfectly even, very dark and shiny. I put on three coats and was quite pleased. However when I rubbed it with steel wool almost all of the blueing came off. There was only a light tint left on the metal.

The second time I blued the barrel (I re-sanded and degreased with alcohol, though did not wash with soap and water) it was not nearly as nice. Much more uneven, and not as deep/dark/shiny of color. In places I it is more of a brown, and in some places I can see the silver gleam of the metal underneath. Plus it seems to be rusting a bit already. It does seem more durable this time though, rubbing it lightly with steel wool isn't taking the blueing off. I just wish it looked like it did the first time, that was very satisfactory in terms of appearance.

I'm very confused on how it could look better the first time, but be less durable. I should think the fact that it blued nicer would mean I did a better job that time and since it's patchier this time it shouldn't be as durable....

I did use the steel wool on it only a few minutes after blueing it the first time, say maybe five minutes, ten tops. On the second time it set at least a half hour, maybe an hour before I used steel wool on it. Perhaps if the first attempt had set a while longer it would of been more durable?

I know cold blue isn't near as good as hot blue, but is this pretty much normal, or have I done a poor job both times?

Anyway, I think I've went on long enough here. Thanks for any advice.

 

[sniper5]

I have had a lot of luck using perma blue by rubbing it in to heated (warmed with propane torch) metal with degreased steel wool. Just rub it in lightly with the steel wool until the color evens out and then let it dry, buff lightly with the steel wool and repeat the process about 3 or four times and then a light rub with oiled steel wool to kill the process so you don't get rust.

 

[rcmodel]

Nothing you can do to the 94 Winchester will work.

They changed the receivers steel in 1964, and whatever the "Mystery Metal" is, it will not take cold blue well, or at all.

Your best bet in both cases is "Shake & Bake" like Brownell's Gun-Coat or Teflon/Moly oven cure finish.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...?p=1150&title=GUN-KOTE? OVEN CURE, GUN FINISH

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...=1145&title=TEFLON/MOLY OVEN CURE, GUN FINISH

Cold blueing a whole firearm is not going to stay on much longer then it takes you to do it.

rc

 

[rbernie]

I have had a lot of luck using perma blue by rubbing it in to heated (warmed with propane torch) metal with degreased steel wool. Just rub it in lightly with the steel wool until the color evens out and then let it dry, buff lightly with the steel wool and repeat the process about 3 or four times and then a light rub with oiled steel wool to kill the process so you don't get rust.

This is how I did my Enfields and Mausers. They looked great when I was done.

Cold blueing a whole firearm is not going to stay on much longer then it takes you to do it.

And this was the end result of all that work.

It just doesn't last. Either get a proper hot blue or resort to surface coatings (e.g. paints/epoxies).

 

[selinoid44]

I have blued several guns with Blue Wonder and of course metal preperation is the most important key to getting a good blue. You can get Blue Wonder from Midway USA. It comes in blue or black, I prefer the black. I buy the kit. The bigger kit is nice it allows you to do more then one job. Heating the metal to 130 degrees and applying it until you get the desired depth of coloring. Does a great job IF done right.

 

[frogomatic]

take a look into parkerizing, it'll turn out better than cold blue, and is very easy to do.

 

[rcmodel]

Again, the Post-64 94 Winchester receivers are not going to play by the rules.

I'm not even sure Parkerizing will work on them right.

rc

 

[jimmyraythomason]

For Winny 94 receivers, hot blue with Brownells' Oxynate #7 with Oxynate S added is the best option. Oxynate #84 will work but not as well (in my experience).

 

[The Avatar of Time]

Thanks for all the advice. Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I had to go on a little trip.

I finished the .22 rifle with the Hoppe's cold blue. It's........ okay. Luckily the areas that didn't take blue well are covered by the stock. All in all I don't think the average person would realize it wasn't the original bluing job. I do, and I'm sure most everyone here would, but point being it doesn't look all that bad, especially since the gun had almost all the bluing worn off when I got it. I'll try to post a picture of it if I get a chance.

I applied most of the bluing with q-tips, using a new one as soon as the current begin to get dark colored. I tried using a sponge to apply the blue, but instead of soaking into the sponge it wanted to run off onto the floor. Paper towel didn't seem to soak it up well either.

I didn't heat the barrel on this attempt, but I think I'll give that a try if/when I blue another rifle.

As to the Winchester not taking a blue: do you just mean it won't stay on long? I cleaned off a small area on the receiver and on the barrel for a test and it took a nicer, darker blue than the .22 did. But it might not last long either. I'm going to check on the year of it as soon as I get time.

I would like to try parkerizing something, I'm fond of that type of finish. I have a pair of Walther P22's that are parkerized black (also called flat black correct?).

I hadn't heard of those two spray on products before, I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of how they look on a gun.

I think I'm going to get setup to do hot bluing too, I think it will be well worth the money.

One question on the cold bluing: I take it from what I've heard that it isn't required to use water after applying the blue? Assuming you use oil instead.

Thanks again for the advice you've all given.

 

[krs]

Get some cotton balls instead of q-tips. You can do it more evenly and it sometimes helps to just rub with a blueing wet cotton ball. OxphoBlue from Brownell's, but don't buy the big bottles, or if you do, decant the stuff into much smaller bottles. Stuff seems to have a shelf life.

 

[atvalaska]

i did 2 guns this past year..

i tried it before with mixed restults..this time i DID not remove the old/worn blueing i REALLY degreased ........than coat after coat (3)of cold blueing w /0000 steel wool really watching the time before rinse with 165 deg water rite from the boiler....than heavy grease with "sit" time .. looks great!

 

[madcratebuilder]

Has anyone used Art's Belgian Blue? I have had excellent results on the few revolvers I have done. I does require a container of boiling water, several coats and carding.
The metal you are working with does make a difference.

 

[The Avatar of Time]

Hello Again,

Thanks for all of the advice thus far, I really appreciate it.

Do you guys think that you would get better results by waiting a whlie in between coats of bluing as opposed to applying them one after another?

Let's say you put on a couple coats, wait a day, steel wool polish and degrease it again and apply more coats. Since the bluing toughens up, and seems to darken a bit too, after curing overnight, I would think that you would have a more durable blue doing it this way. Also though, does the bluing darken better with quickly repeated coats than it would waiting a day, or should it darken the same either way?

I'm trying this method now. I started on a rifle (the Winchester) and put a few coats on. I'm alternating between a coat of Birchwood Casey and then a coat of Hoppes (I haven't had the chance/money to pick up any other brands or products). After putting a few coats on I had to go do something else and now (the next day) I am adding more coats to it. It doesn't seem to be darkening as good as it was before, but that may be all in my head.

As for the receiver it is taking blue but it's coming out more of a sky blue color than the dark blue/black color that the barrel is. I realize this is probably because of the type of metal as people have mentioned here. I just thought I would mention that it does seem to be taking a blue, albeit not a very good one. I haven't got around to finding out what year it was made yet.

Also here are a few pictures of the .22 that I restored:
http://theavataroftime.com/Pictures/RestoredRifle/

Not a super job but it's the first gun that I have ever blued. Not too bad considering it had virtually no blue on it and the stock was greasy looking and cracked. I glued it, you can probably still see the crack between the trigger guard and receiver. The glue seems to be holding pretty well. I'll see if I have any before pictures of it. I also painted the trigger guard. I didn't have any black paint, which is what it was originally. I tried bluing it but it wouldn't take. I think it's aluminum. I don't mind the bronze that I used on it though.

I didn't put alot of time into sanding the stock, and I haven't got all the pits filed out of the bolt handle, but it's just an old hunting rifle and I needed the practice before working on anything more valuable.

I couldn't figure out how to turn the flash off on my camera, but the blue is pretty even on the barrel, it's not shiny like in the pic. That's just the flash. Same thing with the stock, that real light part is actually the same color as the rest of it. If I ever manage to figure out how to turn off the flash I'll put up some better pictures.

Take care everyone.

***Edit: Actually on the stock it's a lamp that was shining on it that makes the one part look light, not the camera flash.

 

[Big Az Al]

THOSe post 64 actions

I have heard it called graphedic steel.

No bluing that I hace seen will stay put once the factory Iron plating is gone, it may come out of the tank looking good but the finest rag and lightest touch will wisk it right away!

I have seen some good looking Parkerized finish's I have not heard how will they last.

What I have done and feed back is good.........

Is nickle plate the action, this means it needs to have the barrel removed.

Blast a matt finish to the action , and then have plating shop plate it(I have access to a plating shop) NO more then 12 minutes in the nickle(which can be more difficult then you would believe as the platers are hard wired for about 40 min in the nickle tank), gives the action a nice white finish that will stand up fairly well, and all the parts will install with out having to refit them to the plated action

 

[The Avatar of Time]

Hello Again,

Nickel plating wouldn't be a bad method, it looks good on some guns. I used to have a .270 (Raptor Arms) that was nickel plated. It's sure easy to take care of. It's really a shame that the receiver on this Winchester is so hard/impossible to blue. I was really looking forward to restoring it to it's (more or less) original condition.

I haven't looked into it yet but is a 'case hardened' finish something that can be acheived at home? I have a Heritage .22/.22WMR revolver that is case hardened and I really like the look.

The parkerizing is something I wouldn't mind trying (it's my father's rifle, so he has to aprove...). I was thinking perhaps parkerizing the receiver and leave the barrel, bolt, lever, and so on blued. Might look neat. I would really love to see a picture of a parkerized '94 Winchester if anyone has one. There is some design tooled into the receiver, that thankfully didn't have rust in it so I didn't have to file it. Do you think it will still be visible under a parkerized finish? I'm not sure how thick of coating that stuff puts on.

I have 'finished' the rifle for now, though once I decide what to do for sure I'll be redoing the receiver and the very bottom of the barrel where it goes into the receiver. The receiver has held some of the cold bluing. I use some 'microfiber towels' that I picked up at the dollar store for wiping my guns down and they don't knock the bluing I got on the receiver off (it actually seems to be on there pretty decent in terms of durability. Just not in terms of looks). They're really the best thing I've found, they don't scratch and they also have no lint in them, even after washing, unlike terry clothes and such. Lint can be all kinds of annoying once something is oiled. As can the hair my dogs love to leave all over......

I'll get some pics up soon of the 94. Thankfully do to the rust being only in certain areas I didn't have to take all of the bluing off of the barrel or receiver. I would have though if you guys hadn't warned me about the receiver not bluing well though, so thank you very much. It would have been a terrible thing to find out after the fact. Though I wish I had known sooner, since I planned to take off all of the bluing I didn't take any special care to keep from scratching the receiver while filing out the rust pits. Lesson learned I guess.

There was a pretty good sized area on the barrel that I cold blued and it looks really nice. Blended in and matched the color real well. The octagon barrel is also 'brushed' as opposed to being smooth, and luckily I was able to keep that look in the reblued area by using sandpaper and a wire brush on a drill. I suppose that that's easier to do than trying to get a smooth finish. This is the only rifle I've seen that was brushed down the barrel.

The receiver didn't turn out very good, but it could of been worse I suppose. The bluing doesn't match well, since the receiver is actually more black than blue. the area of bare metal blued okay but where it meets the original blue it turns a light blue/gray color. It's better than nothing, at a distance it looks fine. Up close not so good.... but it beats the huge rust pits that were in it before. Dad is happy with it, which I guess is the most important thing. Thankfully the inside of the barrel is not pitted.

Does anyone know how hard it is to screw the barrel out of the receiver? I didn't try, I was afraid of crushing the receiver in the process, since I'll likely have to put it in a vice. I plan on planing a board that fits really tight into the receiver and then putting it in a vice to try to twist the barrel out. When I get some parkerizing stuff or whatever I decide to try next I want to check the threads in the barrel for rust.

Has anyone that has used both Hoppe's cold blue and Birchwood Casey's Perma Blue (liquid, not paste) have an opinion on which is better? I may have a bad batch or something but the Birchwood blue just won't get dark at all. Goes from shiny silver metal to light gray metal....... The Hoppe's puts on a very nice dark blue, almost black (except on the receiver of course...). So my opinion now is that Hoppe's is much better, but like I say, maybe there is just something wrong with the Perma Blue that I bought. I've tried both blues on two different guns and in both cases the Perma Blue just won't darken much. It works a bit better when alternating layers of it and Hoppe's though.

I'm curious to know if the gun in the instruction manual that came with the Perma Blue kit is actually cold blued. If so it's an excellent job.

Has anyone tried those little touch up bluing pens?

Lastly, what did you guys think of the .22 I linked to? Feel free to be critical. I'll try to get better, flash-free pics of it up soon as well as the Winchester pics.

Thanks again for all the great advice. I'm still interested in hearing more tips also. It might help someone else looking for information and I have a few more rifles to relue also.

Take care all.