Colt .38 Smokeless Military Pistol

[crslght]

I have recently aquired a Colt semiautomatic .38 caliber pistol with serial number 334xx which I have determined was manufactured in 1911. It appears to be in good shape and a local gunsmith has checked it out and said it is safe to fire. I'm interested in dertermining it's value. The patent dates shown on the weapon are Apr. 20, 1897 and Sept. 9, 1902. It is a military model with the lanyard ring and has black ruberized grips with "Colt" across the top of each grip and the Colt rearing horse stamped in the side end near the trigger. Any information anyone can provide would be most appreciated.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi crslght,


If it has the squared off Butt, and Lanyard Loop on the side of the bottom of the Butt, then this indeed sounds like the Colt Military Model of 1902, .38 ACP.


Images would be good, if you can post some.


Value would depend on originality and overall condition...which without images, is hard to gauge.



The Cartridges/Ammunition for this Pistol must only be the actual ".38 ACP" and must not be .38 Super ( which is the same size in every way but too powerful for this Pistol's design ).

 

[Old Fuff]

While it is a great (and valuable) collectable I wouldn't shoot it. When you disassemble the pistol the slide is removed by pulling it backwards after removing a key or wedge at the front. No other Browning-designed pistols work this way, as the slide is removed by pulling it forward.

Should the slide crack, or the key fail in some sort of way, the slide will go straight back at high velocity and hit the shooter's head - most likely between the eyes.

I suggest that this "gunsmith" you talked to take some more time to study pistol designs.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You have a great collector's pistol -- but it's not a shooter.

 

[crslght]

Colt .38 Military Pistol





Adding some photos.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Old Fuff, I assume you meant no other general type of Colt/Browning worked that way, but all the old .38's and the .45 caliber Model 1905 used that dual link system. It was the army that forced Browning to redesign the .45 pistol to work the same as his pocket pistol so the slide couldn't come off backwards.

Still, many millions of rounds were fired through those old pistols, and problems were rare, so I won't say they should never be fired as long as the proper (.38 ACP or equivalent) ammo is used. .38 Super is a NO-NO!

I always like to mention that the slide lock (that wedge) is removed by simply pushing in on the recoil spring plug (in the muzzle below the barrel) and letting the wedge fall out to the left. If someone tries to drive that wedge out, the gun can be wrecked.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

If it is factory nickel it is a good catch.

I have always wondered, if you just must shoot one of the old parallel ruler guns, would it be worthwhile to have a wedge made out of modern tool steel?

 

[crslght]

I believe it is factory nickel. I can't prove that, however, since it originally belonged to my sister's husband's great uncle who has long since passed away. It was the pistol he carried when he worked security for the railroad.

 

[Jim K]

It is just my opinion, but I think most of the problems involved with that gun didn't come from the wedge or the slide breaking, but from folks forgetting to put the wedge back in. Also, if the little locating tit breaks or wears off, the wedge can be put in backwards so it doesn't interlock with the spring plug and can fall out.

Jim

 

[Oyeboten]

Exactly Jim,


No way the Wedge or Slide would fail for the Slide to come flying off the rear.


Forget to replace the wedge, and sure, the Slide would fly off the rear perfectly well if the Pistol were fired in that condition.


Lol...


I used to shoot a weekly casual competition in the 1980s, and I mostly used a 'Sporting Model' of the Colt Browning .38 Auto.


I just re-loaded my own, and used 148 Semi Wad Cutter Bullets which were usually used for .38 Special, and, whatever grains of 'UNIQUE' to get things to 50 Yards with a reliable accuracy.


Inherently very accurite Pistols, and a joy to own and shoot.


I have seen examples which had the front of the Wedge area of the Slide 'peened' from the person shooting who knows how much .38 Super in it.

I have seen a few bulged Barrels also ( the Pistol still cycled and functioned perfectly well however in the instances I had seen ) , which I supposed were from a shot following a squib.


Never once saw or heard of any instance of a Slide flying off the rear for any reason...and I had quite a few conversations with the authors of the first Books on these, as well as with what at the time were many of the predominant Collectors of them, and no one had ever heard of any instance of that happening ever.



It is one of those things, which "c-o-u-l-d" happen IF one left the Wedge out and fired it...assuming one still did not notice when cycling the Action to chamber the round one could then fire in that condition.


I just tried the experiment, with a 1903 'Pocket' Model, having the same action as the M1902 'Military' Model.


If one inserts a charged Magazine, and cycles the Action to chamber a Cartridge, and, one has left the Wedge out, the Slide comes back way too far and way too easily, with no resistence at all ( other than to initially cock the Hammer, assuming one has not cocked it first manually ) in the action of pulling the Slide "back" to cycle the mechanism and bring things to Battery...and one would have to be very out of touch or distracted or clueless not to notice that.


I think the idea of the Slide flying off the rear as mis-adventure, is appealing only to people who have never owned any of these Pistols to have actually examined their constructiuon, or to have actually operated them.


It is simply not going to happen from any failure of the Slide or Wedge anyway.


Operator failure, same as for anything else I s'pose.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well that is a great relief to me.
The prices seem to stay at least one jump ahead of what I am willing to pay for a nostaligia trip but I might stumble into one of those buys where you get the post:
"I paid $99 for this gun 'cause it was only 99%. Did I get a good deal?"
If so, I would want to shoot it.
On ceremonial occasions, as my friend with the odd bunch says.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jim,



Well, when a Loaf of Bread was 49 Cents at Safeway, most of the old .38 Autos were a few hundred bucks.


Loaf of Bread now, pushing $4.00 I suppose, and, many of the .38 Autos can still be had for under a grand, so, really, it is a pretty good deal compared to all the other stuff one buys with nary-a-thought!



The few I have, I got long ago, when, a Loaf of Bread was, well, a lot less than now anyway.


If I did not have any, I would step up to the Plate and get one now...I'd be patient and particular, but, $800.00 - $1200.00 should get a decent enough one to shoot and re-load for and have a lot of fun with.


Very good Ballistics with these, Factory Ammo was always 130 Grain Copper Patch and 1050 FPS...hard to find old Factory Boxes of lighter Lead Hollow Points were quite a bit faster...they shoot about dead flat at fifty yards, and the Hard Ball will penetrate an Automobile very well.


They are happy to chamber .357 or .358 Semi-Wadcutters of various weights also, for Target or other occasion, or about any sort of Hollowpoints of course.

Nothing finicky about them as is the case with so many 9mm designs.


Very simple design, extremely few parts, easy to demount and clean, a joy all the way around.

Recoil is very mild and easy, in spite of the snappy Ballistics, and the Pistols feel perfect in the Hand, is very slim and compact and easy for IWB, or any other Holster/Carry mode.


I carried mine pretty well every day for about six or seven years, and would never hesitate to have it as my only defence Arm on hand.

 

[Old Fuff]

Like the "broomhandle" '96 Mauser, the possibility of a system/design failure in one of the older Colt .38 pistols is perhaps mostly in the relm of theory. But still there is a risk, and considering the consequences it is a risk that's easily avoided. Considering the number of pistols that are out there (Colt's and otherwise) that don't present any hazzard in this context, I see little (O.K., no) reason to take any chances. I only know of one reported incident where the slide did come off and hit the shooter when the lower/front part of the slide seperated from the rest of it, but it is noteworthy that the shooter didn't survive. I hope no further cases of this sort of thing occur, but in my mind just one would be one too many.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Old Fuff,



It is hard for me anyway, to imagine an instantaneous, catastrophic failure of the entire first inch or so of the Slide, for such an event to occur...



No signs of peening, cracking or other tell tales leading up to it before hand?



Well, we will never know, I suppose.


Nor will we ever know what that fellow was shooting Ammunition wise...or had been shooting Ammunition wise for however many days, weeks months or years prior.


Is there any documentation for this?



To me, one may as well say it is not worth the risk to shoot .38 Special, since look at all the images and stories of Top Straps blown off and burst Cylinders!


Those are things which actually are well known and many times seen by many people, and for which plenty of images and documentaion are abundant in Books and on the internet.


Never mind that the conditions which caused it, are avoidable.


I am just surprised you would focus on this one thin and implausable tid bit of hear-say, and or an imaginary scenario which would take quite an idiot to accomplish ( leaving out the 'Wedge', cycling the arm to Battery, and firing, without noticing anything 'odd'? Like how the Slide would not even chamber the Round in the first place with the recoil spring disengauged? And or the operative pulling the Slide off in trying to cycle it TO chamber a round if the 'Wedge' were out? etc) to globally condemn an entirely splendid, brilliant line of Colt Pistols.

 

[Oyeboten]

I was thinking...sometime soon I will bring my M1902 'Sporting' out to the Range, and try a few rounds, and, try a round where I will leave the 'Wedge' out.


I will be sure of course to be holding the Pistol so when the Slide comes off the rear, it will not hit me.


I am curious to see how far it will go, if the Arm is being held at a normal height and normal horizontal attitude.


My guess is, it will not fly off very far or very hard, but, we shall see.


Anyway, the several successive experiments I did in bringing the Pistol to Battery, chambering a Round, with the 'wedge' left out, repeatedly shows to my satisfaction anyway, that for anyone to do that unwittingly, they would have to be totally clueless or out-of-it not to notice the condition and not to notice the entire absence of any Rebound Spring presence/tension/resistance...and not to noptice that one must bring the Slide forward manually in order to chamber a round, since no Spring tension is present to do that function if the Slide is merely pulled 'back' against the Spring and then let go, in the usual manner for chambering a Round in any Automatic.


Further brooding on the possibility of the entire front of the Slide catastophically sheering or breaking off, similarly continues to seem to me to be extremely improbable, especially if with no graduated damage and obvious signs of damage leading up to it, as to be beyond the rhelm of the plausable...and beyond the rhelm of anything to worry about.

 

[Old Fuff]

And or the operative pulling the Slide off in trying to cycle it TO chamber a round if the 'Wedge' were out? etc) to globally condemn an entirely splendid, brilliant line of Colt Pistols.

This "...splendid, brilliant" design was one of Browning's first, and for that matter the first Browning-designed pistol put into production by Colt. It represented a design that neither Browning nor Colt had any previous experience, and it should be noted that with the exception of the model 1905 Colt .45 pistol and .22 pre-Woodsman, Browning never, ever brought forth another pistol where the slide was removed from the back.

I didn't dream up my example of a shooter being hit in the face, but finding the source would take more time then I willing to expend. There is not a high probability of having something happen, but there is a possibility - and given the consequences if something did happen I see no reason to take the risk. That's why I posted a warning, and if others choose to ignore it they can do so.

 

[Onmilo]

How cool is that!
An old Colt .38 auto with some history to it!

If a gunsmith checks the gun out and gives an A-OK to shoot it, by all means do so.
You will need to handload some ammo for it, DO NOT shoot .38 Super of ANY kind in the gun!

A handload of 4.5 grains Winchester 231 and a 124 or 130 full metal jacket bullet will do fine in the old gun.

I have had the good fortune to own and shoot a few of the Colt .38 Autos over the years.
They are remarkably pleasurable shooting guns but don't get any ideas of using one as an everyday carry piece now.
They are pretty fragile compared to newer designs.