Colt action question

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Well, the Colt percussion guns and the SAA are not "exactly the same." The main difference in the action is that the SAA has a double pawl hand where the cap and ball guns have a single pawl type. The latter, like the hands on the Colt DA revolvers, will create a tight lockup by forcing the cylinder hard against the cylinder bolt. The drawback is that it can also force the cylinder out of alignment if the cylinder notches or the bolt wear too much.

Jim
 
Well......I've heard of that gunsmith. All I get is that he has the same opinion as Old Fuff and a few others here. What I'd like to know is whether or not the "COLT FACTORY" uses the process of the backstrap as a stop. My opinion is different than some I guess. I know one thing.....I can tune a cap&baller as good or better than anyone. People call it magic.:what: ha ha ha See....all I work on is Cap&ballers and I know them better than any pro gunsmith I've talked to. I can't say I'm right (just an opinion)since there's no documented tech reference to the backstraps being a stop(more than opinion) proving that is needed and is imperetive. I know if a cap&baller with it's inferior steel is set up to use the backstrap as a stop when the gun hits full cock then...it ain't gonna be working too long before it needs a longer hand or a new cylinder. That's just my opinion. I'm like that danged Old Biker, Buckskinner, Army Sgt., Cap&ball Kitchen table gunsmith, Dirt Rollin ,Duck Billed, Web Footed Platypus, Smoking Gun. I'm opinionated when it comes to my cap&ballers. It's not a hobby. It's a life style. ;) Thanks Pards for an interesting Thread. Now.......I'll probably try to start incorporating the "backstap stop" to my tune jobs. Lets see...start with the hammer and the trigger.........weld the backstrap or make a real long trigger.....cut the hand short.....watch for the hammer throw getting too long.....Oh hell....start over.....:cuss: :eek: :scrutiny: :banghead:
 
I resemble that remark

That's just my opinion. I'm like that danged Old Biker, Buckskinner, Army Sgt., Cap&ball Kitchen table gunsmith, Dirt Rollin ,Duck Billed, Web Footed Platypus, Smoking Gun. I'm opinionated when it comes to my cap&ballers. It's not a hobby. It's a life style. Thanks Pards for an interesting Thread. Now.......I'll probably try to start incorporating the "backstap stop" to my tune jobs. Lets see...start with the hammer and the trigger.........weld the backstrap or make a real long trigger.....cut the hand short.....watch for the hammer throw getting too long.....Oh hell....start over.....


Are you comparing me to you again? What did you do wrong and are you in trouble? HeeHee!
I like ya like that Rifle, don't change.

If we din't have opinions and called it just sharing knowledge we'd just know it all with out discussing any of it. What the hell fun would that be? Everybody keep up the good work... Be know it alls and show it:D

SG
 
Give me 3 clicks, give me 3 clicks mister, give me 3 clicks towards the door

I think I know what the “3” click feel is. While not wanting to plagiarize too much, the best explanation I’ve seen is in “The Definitive Guide to Shooting Muzzle Loading Pistols” by Derek Fuller. The book has some great illustrations that show the movement of the action, but I thought copying them would be going a bit too far. Here’s Fuller’s description and I’ll add where I think the clicks are heard:


“drawing the hammer back, the initial action is to drop the cylinder stop…from its indent in the cylinder. As the hammer is rotated (pulled back) you can hear the scear on the top of the trigger “click” (click #1) as it slips over the half cock notch.. Further rotation enables the back of the trigger…to drop into the full cock notch (click #2 ) As the hammer reaches full cock, ….allows the return spring to pop the cylinder stop …into the waiting indent in the cylinder (click #3)”

So I think the first 2 clicks are from the half cock and full cock notches and the third may be the cylinder stop popping back up. At least that’s my theory.

Apologies to Lynard Skynard on the title
 
The backstrap in Colt's first revolver, the Paterson, has a cutout so the hammer can go back without hitting. The cutout isn't there in my Walker or Dragoon but the hammer doesn't touch the backstrap in either. I know these are Italian repros but even in my 1861 Colt Navy .36 Signature Series the hammer doesn't touch the backstrap, though it comes close (if it did hit the backstrap, it would mar it and tick me off). I don't have a Root Sidehammer but I don't think the hammer could touch that backstrap.
Then look at a Ruger Old Army, probably the best machined BP revolver ever made - the hammer doesn't come close to touching the backstrap.
What does it all mean? Not sure. In a well timed revolver the backstrap shouldn't have to be used as a stop.
 
What does it all mean? Not sure. In a well timed revolver the backstrap shouldn't have to be used as a stop.

I see I'm going to have to write another book... :rolleyes:

Anyway, if the backstrap doesn't act as a stop what does stop the hammer from rotating , short of the backstrap?? :uhoh:

Think first, answer second... ;)
 
Anyway, if the backstrap doesn't act as a stop what does stop the hammer from rotating , short of the backstrap??

On mine it's the hand (whether or not it's supposed to be)--which gets worn out rather quickly unless one is deliberate to go easy on the hammer. I'm on my third hand in under two months. I can fit one in about 15 minutes now with all the practice I've had. This is quite the learning experience.
 
On mine it's the hand (whether or not it's supposed to be)--which gets worn out rather quickly unless one is deliberate to go easy on the hammer. I'm on my third hand in under two months. I can fit one in about 15 minutes now with all the practice I've had. This is quite the learning experience.

You get a A- for being observent. ;)

Now for a another question: If the backstrap stopped the backward rotation of the hammer, and the hand was the right length, would you still wear the hand out?

By the way, you can't wear a hand. Wear comes from rubbing two pieces of metal (or whatever) together under pressure. The hand doesn't rub anything. What is causing your problem is not wear, but battering, two pieces of metal (or whatever) pounding on each other. In this instance there are three places involved. (1) a tooth on the cylinder ratchet. (2) the tip of the hand, and (3) the pin at the bottom of the hand.

Keep thinking... ;)
 
Take the grips and backstrap off a revolver, as I just did, and cock the hammer - it stops at the same spot. Remove the cylinder and cock the hammer - it goes back further. So, the bolt locks the cylinder, the hand limits the movement of the hammer, which means the backstrap does not act as a stop, anymore than the back of your garage was meant to act as a stop when you back your car in. It will stop it if things go wrong, but...
What book did you write?
 
So, the bolt locks the cylinder, the hand limits the movement of the hammer, which means the backstrap does not act as a stop

You are getting closer... ;)

When you cock the hammer the hand will rotate the cylinder as far as it can. If the backstrap isn't there the hand can rotate the cylinder well past the next notch in the cylinder. But it won't if the bolt locks the cylinder in that notch. If the hammer can continue to rotate backwards the hand is going to be squeezed (actually pounded) against the ratchet tooth at the top, and the pin in the bottom of the hand that connects it to the hammer.

Also since the backstrap isn't acting to stop the hammer that job will fall to the bolt and cylinder notch, and you will get battering and pounding there. It does not help to have the hand trying to rotate the cylinder while the bolt is trying to stop it.

Right? :)
 
No more jumping for bones. I took the backstrap off and nothing changed. The Paterson has a notch in the backstrap so the hammer can be pulled back without hitting it. I have no marring of metal on any backstrap of any gun that would certainly result from the hammer hitting the backstrap. And, as Rifle said, I've never seen anything in writing that would indicate Colt's intended use of the backstrap as a stop. Sure, the Walker can be used as a club when you run out of ammo, but did Colt intend it to be used that way? The backstrap will stop a hammer that is basically on its own mechanically but it was not designed as a stop.
Class is out.
 
:) pohill: In my previous post " Master Gunsmith, Robert Dunlap , an ex-employee of Colt, made the same statement about the Backstrap being the stop."
He stated that ' COLT ' intended for the [BackStrap to be used as the Stop].

That's why I put his statement in there. But as usual, I was too brief. Should've explained it better the 1st time...;)

Sage
 
I read your post and I appreciate your input, but, like Rifle said, how do we know that Sam Colt intended the backstrap to be a stop? I worked at Lowe's in the Plumbing Dept for a short time (very short, part time) which makes me an ex-employee of Lowes, but do not ask me anything about plumbing. All I'm saying is that when I remove the backstrap the hammer moves exactly the same amount, and if the backstrap did stop the hammer, it might prevent the action from working properly when things wear and "settle in." Then there's the Paterson, Colt's first revolver, which has a cutout in the backstrap for the hammer to move further back.
In reading the old Colt patents, I found a reference to the wedge screw being used as a stop or "check" for the wedge, which met with some resistance when I mentioned it on a forum. But it's concrete info like that which would make me believe that the backstrap was intended to be used as a stop, and I've seen nothing in the patents...yet. Maybe it's there.
And believe it or not, I'm not trying to be "contrary" - I'm fascinated by the simplistic complexity of these guns, and I'd like to learn as much as I can about them.
And as far as Rifle/Wayne - over the years I've challenged him with dozens of questions, and I've yet to trip him up yet.
 
--- how do we know that Sam Colt intended the backstrap to be a stop?

Boy that does have some folks worried... :confused: :evil:

Many years ago when I was still a teen I belonged to a club that had a Muzzle Loading Division. A part of that group included a smaller number that shot cap & ball revolvers. One of those members was an elderly gentleman who was the unofficial armorer that took care of the revolvers.

Now at this time there were no replica revolvers. It would be two decades or so before they came along. Therefore everyone shot 19th century revolvers, mostly original 1851 Navy, 1860 Army Colts, and New Model Remington’s. Fortunately at this time “shootable” guns had not reached the prices they command today, and Turner Kirkland’s Dixie Gun Works was offering both original and new parts that could be used to repair these guns.

The “armorer” knew what he was doing, because his grandfather and father both had worked at Colt’s; his father during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and his grandfather before that. Apparently neither had been assemblers, but did know how things were done.

I am sure that low end Teen-Fuff :D made a major pain-in-the-backside of himself poking his nose into everything and asking endless questions. Never the less I did learn a few things.

Later, and for many more years I had occasion to examine (and sometimes repair) many 19th century revolvers. Knowing what to look for, I did indeed look. So did Jim Keenen, who by the way also has a background that includes working on old Colts. Occasionally my eyeballs showed me that indeed the backstrap on an old cap & ball Colt had sometimes been altered in the manner that I’d learned about earlier, and I noticed it enough to convince me that it wasn’t unusual.

Now, on this forum we have a fair number of individuals that have tinkered with post-1960 reproductions of the early Colt’s and Remington’s, but not many with in-depth experience ‘smithing the original guns. There may be others, but Jim is the only one I am aware of, and I note with interest that we agree on a number of things although we both came to the same conclusions independently.

I don’t give a hoot who believes me or not. I am a cantankerous old reprobate with an attitude to match. :cuss: Just for grins I am going to sit down one of these days and explain how these guns were built during the mid-19th century. So far as the Colt’s were concerned there was a good reason to use the backstrap to stop the backward rotation of the hammer. Because they did what they sometimes (but not always) did, we have a fair number of guns that are over 150 years old but are still pretty well timed and still have their original lockwork; while modern reproductions of the same guns made out of better steel become battered up and break internals within a few years. What surprises me is that no one can figure out why, even though the reason is obvious. :confused:

Now you guy are all in SERIOUS TOUBLE, ‘cuz you made me write this and my coffee got cold…. :cuss: :cuss: :D
 
Educate me, 'cause I like to learn, just don't do it in that patronizing "now who can answer this question" way.
Show me, don't tell me.
 
Well it's this away.... ;)

I don't mean to be patronizing, but I did hope to stimulate some independent thinking. Sometimes if a hint is given, a light will go on in a lot of folk's heads. But if you find my posts to be overbearing or obnoxious you can and should ignore them.

This business of educating can involve anything from a sentence, to a paragraph, to an article, and even more. The one thing all of this has in common is that I have to do the writing, and it’s my time that gets used up. Sometimes I am paid for my expertise, but not on The High Road. What I do here is because I enjoy it, and sometimes I actually learn something and meet some interesting people. I suppose if I am rattling chains and causing discord I should turn my attention toward something else.
 
Overbearing or obnoxious? Naw. Informative. You know more than I do, and I'm looking for knowledge, but I'm running out of time (aren't we all). So for crissakes...tell me (now I'm joking).
 
:) Old Fuff; I thought I recognized some timely wisdom in your posts, but surely you're not a cantankerous old reprobate with an attitude to , that you claim to be. :p

Thanks for your imput. I enjoy it. A book sounds like a good idea before all that information you have is lost.:scrutiny:

Sage
 
Give me 3 clicks, give me 3 clicks mister, give me 3 clicks towards the door

I think I know what the “3” click feel is. While not wanting to plagiarize too much, the best explanation I’ve seen is in “The Definitive Guide to Shooting Muzzle Loading Pistols” by Derek Fuller. The book has some great illustrations that show the movement of the action, but I thought copying them would be going a bit too far. Here’s Fuller’s description and I’ll add where I think the clicks are heard:


“drawing the hammer back, the initial action is to drop the cylinder stop…from its indent in the cylinder. As the hammer is rotated (pulled back) you can hear the scear on the top of the trigger “click” (click #1) as it slips over the half cock notch.. Further rotation enables the back of the trigger…to drop into the full cock notch (click #2 ) As the hammer reaches full cock, ….allows the return spring to pop the cylinder stop …into the waiting indent in the cylinder (click #3)”


You forgot the click of the bolt head hittin the cylinder before it clicks in to the cyl. slot.....that's four that I count. Surprized no one mentioned that. You know that Colt spot called a ramp...

I sometimes turn up my hearing aid:rolleyes: to hear the Rems click, as they don't smack the cylinder as hard as Colts do.

SG
 
A book would be great - I've tried to get Rifle/Wayne to write one - but, as a great writer once said to me in a letter, "you must remember that many people will read your story, among them will be experts in anything you write about. You have to please them."
True, he was talking about fiction, but it would also apply to anything you might write that will be read. Facts, not opinions, are invaluable.
Who was that great writer? Louis L'Amour.
 
PLEASE GO TO POST #67

There are problems with the illustration here, so I have duplicated the information in Post # 67. Hopefully the illustration issue will be resolved there.


Thank you.
 
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