Colt Army Special - .38 Spec or Long Colt?

[Mossyrock]

This is probably a question best directed at Old Fuff or Dfariswheel, but does anyone know if the Colt Army Special was marked differenty to differentiate between the earlier .38 Colt chambering and the later .38 Special chambering? All of them that I have owned or seen just say "Colt Army Special 38". Given the differences in cartridge dimensions between the two, this might be kind of important. Any info you might have would be greatly appreciated.

 

[krmgator]

Any 38 round will work in your pistol. I am no expert and recently inherited a 1923 US Army Special. I don't shoot any +P in it. I shoot wadcutters and any ammo labeled 38 spl.

There are a lot of discussions, particularly on the colt boards, as some will tell you not to worry about +P and will give you any number of reasons for their opinions.

I actually called Colt and they had told me no 38+P in a pre 1980 38.

Bottom line, your gun, treat it as you wish.

 

[evan price]

krmgator:Any 38 round will work in your pistol.

Erm, no.

Colt revolvers were chambered generally in three .38 calibers: .38 Special, .38 Colt New Police (AKA .38 S&W or .38/200) and .38 Long Colt. I am fairly sure that the Police Positive was the .38 Colt NP offering, and the Army Special, Police Positive Special and Official Police were nearly all .38 Special but I am not Old Fuff!

The Army Specials were "E" frame pistols that came from the New Navy and New Army "41" frame- and were later modernized to the "I" frame with a minor change in how the crane is retained and some other small issues. The Army Specials were never actually issued or sold to the Army- so Colt renamed them the Official Police later as a rebranding, and they lasted until the late 60's iirc... As a matter of fact Army Specials basically morphed directly into the Python with only a few updates. Grips for the "V" frame will fit the "E" and "I" frames.

Most Army Specials that I have seen were in either .38 Special or .32-20 although I did see one in .41 Colt. Best advice is to make sure by trying .38 Special. .38 S&W is a shorter overall round and a .38 Special will not fit the cylinder (unless you have a .38-200 that was bored out for .38 Special)


As to +P or not, bear in mind that what we call +P today is what they used to call regular old .38 Special back then. The load has gotten watered down for liability reasons with old alloy guns. That being said-
You do NOT want to fire .38 +P in these old Colts, they would probably take it, but the timing is the problem with Colts and if you keep feeding it heavy loads it will accelerate wear. There just aren't many people out there who can fix them anymore.

(And yes, I like Army Specials and own a few)

 

[Ruodo]

Any 38 round will work in your pistol.

Nope.

 

[krmgator]

I'm confused.

The US Army Special is a 38 caliber revolver, correct?

So anything that is sold as a 38 caliber round will work in this pistol.

You're saying no?

I understand the whole thing about +P. Birthdate of my pistol is 1923.

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt's Army Special revolver was introduced in 1908. The company had high hopes that it would be adopted by the Army, but by then they had decided to go to something in .45 caliber.

The Army Special was chambered in .38 Special (a.k.a. ".38 Colt Special"), .41 Long Colt, and .32 WCF (.32-20). Those chambered in .38 Special could also use .38 Short Colt, and the Army's .38 Long Colt rounds. They could not use .38 Colt New Police/.38 S&W.

 

[Blue Brick]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/coltp_083106/

 

[evan price]

Krmgator: Nope.

.38 Special is .357" diameter.

.38 S&W (AKA .38 Colt New Police) is .360" diameter.

.38 special is longer than .38 S&W.

This confusion is what makes knowing what you have so important!

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I want to think - and could stand to be corrected - that it had straight-through chamber boring (no shoulder) and could take either round.

 

[krmgator]

I have been shooting 38 spl out of it with no problems at all.

 

[Old Fuff]

The .38 Long Colt cartridge was originally introduced as a round to be used in cap & ball > metallic cartridge conversions. The U.S. Navy adopted it and had Colt convert their inventory of model 1851 revolvers. At the time the round had a heeled bullet similar to the kind used in .22 L.R. cartridges today. Because the case and bullet were the same diameter, chambers were bored straight through.

Later, the .38 Long Colt was offered in various models, including the Colt 1889 Navy (1889-1894) and the 1892 New Army & Navy (1892-1907).

Meanwhile, in 1899 Smith & Wesson came out with an improved version of the .38 Long Colt, which they called the .38 Smith & Wesson Special. It quickly became popular because besides the .38 Special one could also use the shorter length .38 Short and Long Colt cartridges in the same chamber(s).

But the .38 Special didn’t use a heeled bullet, so the chamber was stepped down to bullet diameter in front of the case. This is still true today.

Both the Army and Colt had by this time abandoned the heeled bullet, and late production model 1892 Colt’s had stepped chambers.

In 1908 Colt introduced what they called the “Army Special” even though neither the Army nor Navy ever adopted it. These were chambered in .38 Special, not .38 Long Colt, although Colt called the round, .38 Colt Special because they had no desire to stamp “S&W” anywhere on one of their products.

If a Colt double-action .38 revolver has a straight bored through chamber, and is marked .38 D.A. on the side of the barrel, it is intended to be used with either .38 Short or Long Colt cartridges, not .38 Special. The .38 Special will fit, as will some .357 Magnum rounds. Because they fit however, doesn’t mean they should be used.

You can safely fire .38 Short or Long Colt’s in a revolver chambered in .38 Special, but not necessarily the other way around.

 

[Jim K]

Evan Price wrote:

"As to +P or not, bear in mind that what we call +P today is what they used to call regular old .38 Special back then. The load has gotten watered down..."

Not true. The standard load for the .38 Special was and is rated at 17k psi; .38 Special +P (factory) is rated at 20k psi. Not as much increase as the "hype" would indicate, but enough to raise concern about +P use in dubious quality revolvers.

Jim

 

[Blue Brick]

I think +P is 18,500 psi.

 

[evan price]

Jim: The CURRENT SAAMI spec for .38 special is 17K, with .38 special +P at 18.5K!

 

[Jim Watson]

They are sure protecting us from ourselves, ca 1980 the SAAMI m.p.a. spec was 18,900 CUP standard, 22,400 CUP +P.

 

[Lone Star]

Keep in mind that during WW II, the British ordered many Official Police revolvers in .38 S&W "regular", not Special. This was to allow ammo interchange with their other .38's by Enfield, Webley, and S&W. Some were marked, "Colt Commando." They were not widely used by actual Commando units, though, which issued mainly Colt .45 autos.

S&W made far more M&P guns for them than did Colt, but there were quite a few Colts. Over 568,000 S&W's!

The Army Special was never chambered for .38 S&W regular, unless maybe they got a special order. Unlikely...

The Police Positive and the Police Positive SPECIAL have different frame lengths and take different .38 rounds.

Any of the basic Colt books or Geoff Boothroyd's superb, "The Handgun" will give you this basic info. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns" is also a good basic handgun book, if largely limited to US products.

The .38/200 Colts saw war duty. "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton" (sp?) was an acount by a British officer who had to evade Japs in Burma and return to India. He was armed with a Thompson SMG amd a Colt .38.

Lone Star